[Review] Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits (AD&D); Not with a Bang…

[Adventure]
Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits (1980)

David C. Sutherland III (TSR)
Lvl 10 – 14

Queen of the Demonweb Pits - Wikipedia



Q1 is the Return of the Jedi of the GDQ series. Still well liked by some, it is obvious to any but a casual observer that the final episode of the great AD&D Epic that started with G1, both in tone and in overall quality, is widely divergent from the rest. There are good reasons; in the foreword Gygax himself states his pre-occupation with the DMG, as well as his conception for the DemonWeb Pits being far too similar to his idea for Temple of Elemental Evil as fine reasons for not delivering on the project himself. One day Sutherland approaches him about an idea for a dungeon, and Gygax throws up his hands, says ‘fuck it!’ gives him executive control over the crème de la crème of his epic series before speeding off on his motor-cycle while doing a wheelie, and there are we, left with the wreckage and the broken dreams.

I am perhaps a little mean-spirited. If Sutherland had made something along the lines of Q1 as a standalone project it could have ended up somewhere in the lower ***s for being not spectacular but not quite broken either, but rather, it is the stellar heights of the preceding entries, the supernova collapse of its potential and the bizarre 180 tonal shift that gives an unpleasant tang to the whole. A master has appointed a mere journeyman to finish his magnum opus.

In D3 Gygax had already set up the seeds for a final confrontation with ole Spider-puss, and the opening is effective. A mysterious platinum egg sealed by powerful wizardry that can be opened only via a remove curse, filled with more cryptic objects, proof against divination, with its own mystical protections that lead the opener back to Erelei-Cinlu, to venture into the gateway and enter the DemonWeb. There is an ENTIRE journey back into the Underdark and a second run into Erelei-Cinlu that precedes this adventure that is implied and not even tackled. All the prep-work has been done to make this a fucking homerun. But if your initials are not E.G.G., those are some pretty big fucking boots to fill.

We start off with a big list of spells whose function is altered in the Demonweb Pits. This doesn’t HAVE to be bad and figuring out the properties of the place before it kills you can actually be an interesting challenge. It is perfectly legitimate to introduce in one’s adventure obstacles to limit characters’ ability to use missile weapons, wear armor, use weaponry with an area of effect, fight on horseback or whathaveyou so why should it be prohibited to introduce complications that affect character’s ability to use magic? The Demonweb pits is an ultimate realm of evil and as such characters face some pretty severe penalties to their summoning, divination and more holy magic and if you play as a druid in the demonweb pits you are frankly shit out of luck. There are interesting permutations; Imprisonment cannot be reversed in the Abyss, all Shadow monsters become hideous and disgusting in appearance and god help you if you were planning on using polymorph. Perhaps more crippling is the blanket -2 reduction the Abyss inflicts on all your +something weapons and armor, as well as the inability for clerics to regain more then their level 1 or 2 spells. But this is exactly what is necessary for Lolth Boss Fight V2. The party has defeated her on an equal footing, and now you face her in her own realm, where she has all the advantages, and you are fucking crippled.

What is NOT good is the Demonweb pits themselves. You are unceremoniously dumped on a looping maze of giant web strands, 4 levels total, with fog outside it (don’t step in or you will die), random anelids and the much cooler Driders of increasingly large size on the random encounter table and doors at random intervals. So! Disorienting environment, one that CAN be navigated in different fashion, as it is possible to hop from lower strands onto higher strands or vice versa. However, different ‘bands’ of the web are alternatively above and below each level, with the exception of the 4th and last level, so the most practical method is simply to explore each looping maze as a whole, open all the doors (yes there are doors on the side) until you reach the one that will, if you present it with the right ‘key’ object from the egg, teleport you up to the next level. It’s video-gamey but it could be a forgiveable.

The content of the rooms are, however, all fairly boring. 10 trolls that try to pull you in and attack. A lvl 9 CG cleric keeping watch over some babes that are actually werewolves (the adventure uses the damsel-in-distress-is-actually-a-monster trick ad nauseam, see also jackalweres, succubi, Handmaidens of Lolth), gnolls in a barracks, bugbears with a magnet room, drow in a room with a bunch of doors with glyphs on them, ogres in a room with a mirror of life-trapping. Demons of various types in the teleportation room. It’s funhouse slaughter map time. And there isn’t much funhouse to be had. Granted the adventure throws you some curve balls by introducing environmental complications, or sometimes it will pull a fast one (a room with bones and gold will have ghouls and ghasts burst from the dirt to attack you) but this is not the stuff of legends, the sanity-blasting horrors that one was meant to face when one ventures into the horror of the DEMONWEB PITS.

Level 4 is a bit different and shows more promise. Here every door is instead a portal leading to a different prime material plane, where Lolth is up to no good. This is a fantastic concept, ripe with possibility, but the author needed to have the immense creative juice and the design chops to immediately throw something down that is recognizably different from the plane we know, to use each different world to perhaps illustrate or showcase some aspect of Lolth that might be interesting or relevant to the PCs and possibly to introduce various complications or gains from exploring each world. And he needs to do this in less then half a page. Bingeread Moorcock’s Eternal Champion and good fucking luck to you pilot.

Of the 8 worlds, he succeeds properly in 2. Caer Sidi is an elven kingdom of neutral elves (the Pharisees) with evil tendencies, allergic to iron and silver (yaaaay!), whose slave armies wage war with Lolth’s armies of gnolls and ogres (boooh!). The elves have a deliciously cruel faerie edge to them without coming across as duplicates of the Drow or anything else we have seen before. They remind me of Poul Anderson’s interpretation of elves in The Broken Sword. You can ally with them and receive some help from their Duke Alfric. There’s some random encounter tables and there you go, perfect seed for the GM to spin into 1-2 sessions of play, clear reward in book magic items for making an alliance with Alfric, clear penalty for failure. Moving on.

This one is also of note.

This gate looks out across a small desert plain. Although the land is brightly lit, small stars glow on the horizon. Five small suns shine overhead, ranging in color from red to white; the sky is black. Standing about 200 yards away is a large giant-type figure, bone white in color, about 30′ tall. On the ground behind it sits an iron cage holding a man-sized figure. There are no other signs of life.

Who else is interested? A unique menace, a captive that can be freed that delivers some cryptic advice and aid, this is more like it.  

Ideally you would expect different realms to have different attributes; one could function as a red herring, one a place where you meet an ally, one a death trap, one a possible place of succor etc. etc. But even if every entry had been like the above one, it would have been fine. Instead most following entries are more vague, and less interesting. A winter realm that has as its only contents fortresses with evil ice creatures and a random encounter table. A great sea realm (great!) with only a sentence or two to flesh it out before we delve into random encounter tables. The Labyrinth of Arachne provides a portal to a realm of infinite tunnels, inhabited by spiders and what few doomed refugees remain alive. A suitably impressive hell, but here the actual encounters are relatively light-weight. Vampire castle allied to Lolth. Last City of the Dwarves engaged in brutal siege with army of evil humanoids thousands strong (I mean this is good, but there’s no payoff or anything beyond that one idea). I think I would have enjoyed a clearer tie-in with the Lolth slaying quest proper.

Speaking of which, the last gateway leads one to a desert realm, where Lolth’s Wild-Wild-West steampunk spider fortress resides. Speaking of tonal fucking 180. As you approach you are greeted by two mocking gargoyles, and a confused marilith tries to write your name in a ledger (which she keeps misplacing) before escorting you to Lolth proper (unless you try to escape). Lolth will be in a giant throne room, but it will actually be illusionary Lolth, while the real one is peeking out at the PCs from a secret peephole Wizard of Oz style.

Tonally it’s a mess. Is this the stronghold of the supreme demon goddess of the sovereign race of evil? Lolth in Q1 is a twirling moustache villain, complete with quicksand, trapdoors and dastardly escape routes. I halfway expected her to have an escape route with a hot-air balloon in the shape of her own face. The concept of a clockwork spider is alright, and the map, while not brilliant, does have multiple ways to explore it, secret doors, illusions, dispel-magic zones and the works. The supreme interaction with this mechanical death fortress would have been to include some provisions for the characters to enact sabotage in order to cause some form of distraction, but fiddling with the machinery mostly has a chance to inflict damage on the PCs or trigger investigative random encounters.

Monsters are either straightforward combat encounters, or variations of the Succubi gambit, where evil shapechangers attempt to look like hot babes and then kill you. Monster selection is, again, a mess. You expect some sort of evil-uber realm of demons, spiders, spider-demons, drow anti-saints, driders, spidrow, and spider-constructs made of black glass with red rubies for eyes. Instead it’s ettins, ogres, gnolls, demons, gargoyles, giants, salamanders, were-things, dragons and just about every standard antagonist you can envision, most of them straightforward combat encounters. The fortress as a whole lacks an organized response to the intruders. It’s just such a giant step back from the peak lethality of D3.

Treasure too, GONE is ultra-treasure-trap-curse-asshole-mode. GONE are the occasional unique items or flourishes. The art objects are barely themed, there’s some glyphs of warding half-heartedly thrown on things here and there, ZERO yes you read that correctly ZERO poison needle traps, or contact poison traps, or ultra-hidden treasure troves. WHAT THE FUCK? Characters are lvl 10-14 and they are stealing Lolth’s fucking wardrobe and there isn’t at least a comb with a deadly plague vial or a cursed nipple piercing among the damn things? Also an asshole move, Lolth’s coffers contain the abyss equivalent of Faerie-gold, meaning that the GM gets to scam the PCs out of a shitton of money, and Lolth’s hoard is less then your average adult red dragon. What the fucking fuck? Some minor points for having a showdown where Lolth can activate some statues to fight on her behalf but does a demon goddess really have to manually flick switches so 6 HD marble statues OF KNIGHTS IN ARMOR can fight for her? Points for having a one-way planar gateway as an escape route, at least Lolth is not a complete dummy.

I can’t imagine running everyone through GD and then unleashing this band of high-strung, ultra-sharp, mega-cautious fucking KILLERS on Q1 and that turning into anything but a slaughterfest for the poor ole’ demons. Sutherland doesn’t have the deviousness, the nastiness or the inventiveness to really hammer this one home. The result is an anti-climax, a facsimile, fan-fiction.

There’s some new monsters, mostly different varieties of spider or near-spider, the Driders get a belated introduction but are somewhat wasted, and the intriguing hand-maiden of Lolth and its annoying gaseous form ability are thrown in, a suitably irritating and brutal challenge that can only be the hand of the master reaching out and helping this poor soul. The last page has some ideas for extra rooms in the demon-web pits to spice things up, most of which are just more monster encounters, some of which are simple but nice, like this one.

14. HALL OF FATE. In this small but ornate room an old man sits at one end of a polished wooden table shuffling a deck of many things. This man will place all the cards of the deck, face down, in front of any person who sits at the table. Treasure: wand of wonder

17. HALL OF STATUES. This hallway contains 20 “statues,” actually shadows. The door at the end of the hallway is the same doorway that the party came in. When all of the shadows have been destroyed a black opal will appear on some statue pedestals. Treasure: 6 black opals (1,000-5,000 gp each)

Q1 is a coverband, a Brandon Sanderson, a placeholder for an epic confrontation that never did take proper shape. After the meteoric heights of D3, to reduce the showdown with a plane-spanning evil to such a farce feels in many ways like a travesty. It is for this reason that I am less lenient, and that I cannot do anything other then award Q1 two stars. Those who are gearing up to run their epic Greyhawk T(-)GDQS(??) mega-ultra-chocolate-and-fudge-coated campaign are better off just dropping Q. For a high level adventure, it’s not that good. For an exotic plane-hopping adventure, even the flawed Crystal Barrier was much stronger then Q1. What good ideas it has are largely unconnected to the preceding series, are underdeveloped and Sutherlands dungeon design skills need an injection of Slaught. No. 

**


32 thoughts on “[Review] Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits (AD&D); Not with a Bang…

  1. The monster selection is a lot like a lot of TSR products of the same vintage. It seems like the writers had a mandate to use standard creatures if at all possible even when they thematically make little to no sense. I’ve never played through it but I remember reading it and I agree all the little snippets of worlds explained on that one level are the most compelling part of the whole thing but woefully undeveloped. I think I ran across the fantasy book(s) those Pharisee’s came from once but I can’t remember the name.

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    1. Welcome to Age of Dusk!

      I was close. It’s Three Hearts & Three Lions by Poul Anderson.

      The monster selection sounds valid but is ultimately no excuse. D1-3 manages to communicate a distinct vision while using only 1-3 new monsters and Q1 introduces 4 new monsters altogether. Framing and care plays a big part.

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      1. Ha! I knew it was from a pretty classic book. This morning I was thinking it was from one of CJ Cherryh’s Morgaine series. Everybody talks about Vance, Howard, and Tolkien but poor Poul Anderson hardly ever gets mentioned. He only invented the Law-Chaos axis of alignment, D&D Trolls, and the prototype for the paladin.

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  2. Yeah. It sucks, despite much of its absolute coolness. Two stars is about right.

    I’ve thought, more than once, about making my own version of Q1 (hasn’t every fan of the series?). I’ve read Skein of the Death-Mother (from Dragonsfoot) but found it pretty “meh,” finding it mostly a re-skin of the spider ship just for the sake of “don’t mix steampunk in my fantasy.” Steampunk weirdness is fine…it’s the entire adventure that needs an overhaul.

    Some day. Of course, right now, I haven’t even finished writing my adventure for you Anti-Art-Punk challenge.

    [mmm…there’s a lot more to say about Q1, but I just don’t have the time at the moment. Thanks for the review]

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    1. Very excited for the No-Artpunk Challenge!

      I think Gygax’s vision of some sort of Temple Ah La T1-4 feels about right. D3 really sets you up for a journey into a realm of nightmare so some sort of otherworldly hell-fortress is certainly warranted. For all its flaws, I recall H4 doing a much better job of communicating the absolute hell that the Abyss is meant to be.

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      1. How is my No-Artpunk dungeon less linear than the ultimate high-level AD&D module?

        In all fairness, making max-level D&D is hard enough as it is, particularly making something that confines itself to the probably-TSR-mandated “dungeon” format. “Hellish Abyss” and “room by room” are always going to be in conflict.

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      2. I’ll have to (respectfully? maybe) disagree with your memory of H4…but then it’s quite possible that MY recall (bile-filled that it is) is in even worse shape. I still own the adventure, but I don’t have the heart or will to dig it out of the dark crevasse in which it resides just to analyze its awfulness.

        What I feel MORE like doing is rereading D3 and reflecting on what would have been a better possible sequel. Giant temple (a la ToEE) doesn’t really feel right to me…why would a god need a temple on her own plane? Temple’s are built for worshippers to come together, petitioning and/or exalting their deity. There are no worshippers here, only damned souls. This the god’s house.

        I’ll probably said this before, but I’ll say it again…the Demonwebs themselves are fine. A lot of folks consider the scale to be off for a “plane-sized realm.” I would counter by saying that the abyss quite possibly warps space and time. Yes, the levels are miles and miles long, but time distortion causes the distance between doors to feel shorter (or, perhaps parties lose track of time…). This failure to synch with reality could have gross effects on one’s campaign reality (you leave the Demonwebs to find years or decades of time has passed) or not (you leave the Demonwebs to find that NO time has passed). Heck, randomize it…that would seem like a properly Chaotic way to handle it.

        Using the maps already presented, I would add additional levels of content…then every time one featherfalls (or whatever) to another level, roll randomly to determine upon which level they land. A half dozen for each color sounds about right (D6 + D6 + D6…get it?). 18 levels plus the floating “master level” above should be enough to fill plenty of adventuring hours. The various “gateway” doors (from Level 4) should probably be sprinkled throughout the “regular” Demonweb levels, rather than all being placed on the top. The whole of the 4th level should be the home web of the goddess, her crazy-ass abode from which she looks down upon (and spins the webs of) her realm.

        There needs to be more instances of horrific eating in the adventure. Spiders are carnivores. The webs are spun from lost souls, but there should be cocooned bodies throughout the Demonwebs, holding various NPCs and/or creatures in various states of disrepair. D3 sized wandering encounter tables can be used to execute this aspect of the Demonwebs.

        I don’t really like the idea of Lolth hanging out in a single room, waiting to be found. She needs more presence, more directed attention, more focus/interest on the things occurring in her realm. I think the idea of her conquering other planes is interesting…it suggests that the whole “Giant” scheme was, in fact, the work of Lolth (an opening bid to conquer the PC’s world), and perhaps Eclavdra’s heresy/schism is a false one, an elaborate deception/manipulation by the Spider-Queen to distract would-be assailants from visiting revenge on the true mastermind (Lolth). Eclavdra’s and Eilservs are the fall guys…this, finally, makes a bit more sense of the Q1 module (somehow, the PCs have discovered there is no “elder elemental” deity, and they’re getting some payback on Lolth for her mischief). It’s all very Marvel (Comics)-esque…we’ve got to show Loki/Dormamu/Skrull Empire/Galactus/whatever that you don’t mess around with Earth’s Mightiest Heroes, or you get the boot.

        Anyway…lots of ways, I think, to polish Q1 up and make it a suitable capstone, both fantastic and horrific, and suitably weird and rewarding for high level characters. It falls short as it is, but I don’t think it would take much to make it spectacular.

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      3. @Commodore

        Hopefully your Artpunk dungeon is a little bit more refined, so the exploration thereof does not require exhaustively kicking in featureless doors and fighting the ettins contained therein, but some sort of branching pathways/decision trees, really almost any structure would potentially be more interesting.

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      4. @J.B.

        It’s been quite a while since I read H4 too, but the idea of all these layers, mostly open-ended at least communicated something of the scale of the Abyss to me. I think there’s plenty of excuses to make for the DemonWeb pits in Q1 but at the end of the day it feels a little small and artificial. The planar stuff is good, that does give Lolth’s operations a bit more scale.

        Polishing up Q1 would be a heroic effort. Someone certainly has to.

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  3. I liked the alternate dimensions when I first got my hands on the module (a tattered third-gen photocopy). That still holds the promise of Moorcockian high-level AD&D, even if the execution is weak. The rest of the module leaves no trace on a reading, and it would probably leave a foul aftertaste if used as a capstone to an epic G-D camaign.

    Some things were too good to happen, and a proper Q1 (or D4) is one of these, next to Gary’s T2 and the Castle Greyhawk never-ever.

    Liked by 1 person

  4. Very good review, and I agree with the verdict. I thought the Demonweb was an imaginative setting, particularly the idea of monsters floating down to ambush from above, and giving the PCs the opportunity to move between levels. But doors to dungeon rooms stocked with standard prime material CE monsters? Where was the trickery (beyond devious damsels) , the horror, the incomprehensibly alien?
    In play, a fledgling referee unwisely decided Lolth was so affronted by these intruders that she fought it out to her doom. The “steampunk ship” was actually a highlight in play as the players got embroiled in a technical conversation about the ship’s status. Non-committal answers such as “Satisfactory”, “Within usual parameters” were attempted, almost arriving at “We’re fine here, how are you”?
    As Jonathan Becker notes, Dragonsfoot is a good resource for discussions on possible rewrites. Skein of the Death Mother deliberately stuck to the same roster of monsters, I think.

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  5. Sounds like the RPG equivalent of having spent 30 minutes watching Riley Reid and Tori Black think of creative uses for a bag of carrots, then just as you’re reaching for the kleenex , your mother knocks on the door to say dinner’s ready.

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    1. Yeah I’m familiar with the A-series but I don’t think they are quite as well regarded as T or GDQ or other stuff by Gary Gygax, so I omitted them. I read them…a long time ago. I like the idea of A3 where you have to escape while stripped of your equipment but I don’t know how I’d regard the quality of the module now.

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  6. I think the “doors opening into whole other worlds” is the final frontier of the OSR. In TSR’s golden age, physical printing and price limits made this impossible to execute—but in a PDF world perhaps the landscape has finally changed…

    I dare say even your own POUR would have benefited from some more origami-like unfolding levels-of-detail. It was too arrow-shot quick towards the standard single-sheet-of-graph-paper dungeon for my tastes. While your writing was quite baroque, the topographical environment…not so much. Would Q1 have reached greater height with identical content plus purple prose? I think not. God is in the details. (And for the record, in POUR, I did think those details were generally better executed than in the Demonweb, but I still think your best is yet to come.)

    Q1 is 100% amateur hour. Sutherland should have continued doing art just as Gygax should have kept writing adventures. The Peter Principle at work?

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    1. I am not sure I concur r.e. Palace. There’s a nice transition from outside cavern to open beach to city to Palace that I am quite fond of, and having gateways to other realms is something more appropriate to a higher level location I feel. However, you are in luck, as the Third Part of my trilogy, should I ever finish it, will most certainly have gateways like it, and I most certainly will improve after it.

      You might be onto something r.e. the Peter Principle. There’s a sort of implied transition where rpg-cobblers start on modules and go up from there but the skills required to make, say, a good core rulebook is barely related to writing a good module.

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      1. That Part III better have some gnolls in it….otherwise, it may not be a challenge.

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      2. RE: POUR

        …not gateways per se, just onion layers with detail. The ability to go sideways for an extended period and almost forget why you originally came once you get immersed. Baroque architecture in seemingly infinite detail. A little misdirection, superfluous/surprising details, and Easter Eggs—like you would find in a great film or novel.

        Where it wasn’t: The upper works of the palace, the basin, the caves around the mercury lake, the necropolis buildings and streets, etc. Grok?

        Whatever…must just be me.

        Not practical would be the common wisdom.

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      3. @squeen.

        I see what you are now saying, and I might take it under consideration as I won’t argue r.e. the red herrings, but with regards to the detail I would ask what of the pebbles that you can pick up?, the Sybarran steel pit trap blade you can wrench free?, the First Vessel you can overtake and use to house all manner of spirits? What of the Empty Man, and the treasures of the Vault?

        Probably some dusting of red herrings creates a sort of graininess that adds substance to an environment. Too clean and functional can run the risk of making it feel artificial. Still, with Palace I think I have done a decent job at fleshing it out, but I will take this feedback and use it to improve myself, thank you.

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  7. Yes those details were great, but the (intended) direction was clear (and those were the “planted” treasure). What I’m suggesting a bit more of an invitation to wander.

    Think the mysterious northwest passage in B2. The fact that you can entirely skip the Shrine in D2 or the Fane in D3—there really no reasons to go in either. Even some of the G-series lower levels are entirely superfluous.

    When the stated motivation in POUR is “to loot”, then it doesn’t really matter if you are heading towards The Throne of Uyu-Yadmogh or not. Anywhere that’s interesting, fun, and has treasure is contributing to a good session. Having these totally skip-able side-details (with several layers of their own depth—that’s the key) allows the party to steer and prevents the product from coming across as single-note or railroad-y.

    What’s great is when the party convinces themselves that they want to go someplace based upon things they are casually hearing in the the surrounding environment while just “following their nose”. They hook themselves while just exploring. But the designer has to put enough details in for them to linger.

    It makes it possible for the whole location to breath. Less of “this AND that” and more “this OR that”. The city factions were probably the closest to what I’m suggesting, but each was only a single encounter-level deep. You didn’t go there and explore/loot their habitat, you went to see each faction and immediately “got their next-level token”, video-game like. Needed more seduction, but you just went straight into bedroom.

    That’s what I think, but what do I know? (Adventures published: 0)

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    1. I am not convinced this is a detail that should be present in every adventure but it IS something that distinguishes a great adventure from a merely good one so I will take this feedback under consideration and devour it. Thank you.

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  8. I await the forthcoming Merciless Merchants’ publication “Gnoll Country for Weak Monsters” with interest.

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    1. Making something wildly unmatched with Gnolls, like Lvl 15+, and not involving Yeehnoghu would be interesting, but it would have to be some sort of grand Gnoll migration, with apocalyptic numbers of Gnolls, millions of them, entire subspecies, where the characters have to co-ordinate a joint defence between the kingdoms and baronies of the realm, would be interesting. X10 has already done it but you can improve on X10 I think. Hard to make. Someone more into Wargaming would have to be present at some point.

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      1. I was of course joking, but something you could try is an ambush with plenty
        of nets (similar to the initial defence of the Temple in WG4), grappling, Gnoll Shamen with hold person spells, flaming projectiles, etc. But I doubt it would work against readers of this blog, who would use invisibility, scouts. scrying, divinations, attack in unexpected directions, etc. I don’t like handing out powerful magical protections to regular troops (see the 2e adventure Axe of the Dwarvish Lords).

        Small group special operations certainly work, but the problem for any campaign simulator is to what extent the PCs’ personal abilities influence the battle? This problem seems to plague bigger than small ship actions as well, with highly contrived “the lead figures battle it out on the quarterdeck” resolutions.

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  9. You know what you have to do… re-write this module yourself, giving Queen of the Demon-Web Pits the justice it deserves.

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