The Rules-Lite Sickness & Gaining Momentum

A little vacation post to tide everyone over in anticipation of NAP III.

Noisms tackles the pernicious plague of Rules-lites with his usual combination of discernment and trepidation (the Yochai Gal hit squads are no doubt chomping at the bit for a piece of him). He argues from sound principles, rivalling my own, but as usual stops short of pointing the gun at the guilty party and pulling the trigger.

Into the Odd is arguably the genesis of the current pox of rules light games yet it is also utterly unlike them. I like Into the Odd, or at least respect the idea of it. As a thought-experiment, having a sort of minimum-viable DnD and marrying that to a unique setting (Roadside Picnic meets Mevielle’s Bas-Lag), with several sweeping simplifications like the reduction of character abilities to magic items only, is very bold. It is innovative in the truest sense of the word. As a vessel for long term campaign play it will run into all the problems of B/X, magnified exponentially, but as something that can sustain an adventure or two it probably works and sometimes that is all you need. It has a library of alien artifacts and gadgets that replace both magic items and spells, and a short but intriguing list of otherworldly horrors to populate the strange landscape with.

The problem is that once you have IttO, you do not need to fill in the space between it and B/X. The plethora of rules-lights that followed in the wake of it all more or less do away with many of the innovations of Into the Odd, and amount to minor customizations added to a framework of bog-standard, ‘generic’ OSR. The motivation is supposed efficiency, but what is the cost?

There are several major problems with these rules-lites.

1) To a large degree, they lack the extensive library of items, spells and creatures (ref. Gygaxian Building Blocks) that are an integral component of any roleplaying game. The more cunning of these slothful tinkerers will include a ‘conversion guide’ so monsters can be ported in from other systems so as to trick you into thinking this is a good game system, but of course, this conversion guide covers barebones mechanics only. What it does not cover is context.

If you move beyond the idea of monsters as simple blobs of hit points you see that the D&D bestiary, arguably the finest in all of TTRPG land, has a whole host of creatures that are inextricably linked to the abilities, spells and magic items of the player characters. Monster A causes disease, which can be countered with Cure Disease or class immunity, Monster B has poison, monster C uses illusions etc. The same for obstacles like traps, green slime, ravines etc. The 5th level magic-user has access to fireball so the GM introduces a fire-resistant monster. Then consider all the information gathering capabilities that might be imperfectly ported. This interplay between character and monster ability is to a large degree, not something that was designed all at once beforehand, but something that grew organically over time, in a continual arms race between players and GM. The point is that a Medusa will not have the same meaning in AD&D as in DarkDerp if DarkDerp does not also facilitate porting in the various counter-measures, cures and components that interact with it.

What you sacrifice is depth. The reality of DnD is that it is about a great deal more than lateral thinking, creativity and logistics. It is about strategy and tactics. The decision to use a potion of heroism at the right time, preparing the right spells, figuring out a timely use of an obscure spell to get around a problem. The lie of the ultra-lite is that you can capture the quintessential nature of DnD despite largely removing its progression and Gygaxian building blocks. Unless you are thinking about level 1-3, this is false.

This lack of complexity, coupled with a lack of understanding of the proper context (which I will get into below), might be an explanation for the almost universally poor quality of the adventures put out for ultralites. There simply is not enough to work with. You cannot make G3 for Knave without re-inventing the wheel several dozen times and so whenever an adventure is put out it is yet another stab at a dungeon for levels 1-3, something we already have a glut of.

2) This lack of context extends to many of the rules in the rules-lite aswell. The ruleslite is a parasite. Its use of ability scores, hit points and other vestigial combat mechanics, ripped piecemail from DnD have no explanation contained within the game. The justification for its operation is buried in its parent game, despite functional differences. Why does casting a spell in Cairn consume a point of encumbrance? The answer is buried behind blurry walls of abstraction and the question is not considered at all.

3) WTF even is an OSR principles?

‘Compatible with OSR principles’ is the mantra of the rules-lite but there is no canonical source of OSR principles, what few sources exist are contested and the definition of what even constitutes the OSR becomes broader every year. Go on Reddit. Ask the question. You will get a million answers that range from ‘Its oldschool DnD duh (correct)’ to ‘To me it means…’ and until the edict against gatekeeping on gaming preference as opposed to political viewpoints is lifted, this erosion will continue indefinitely. Mechanics are senselessly transposed and ported in in an unwholesome, seething cauldron of disposable gibberish, kept momentarily aloft by attractive art, gimmicks and personal magnetism, until it collapses back into the ultra-lite foam, to clutter up the catalogues of Itch.io.

4) Experience.

Doctor Prince adheres to a hierarchical view of publishing. While you can find exceptions, I do believe that when it comes to OSR games, this is very much true. Ready? The idea is that you can create exemplary work from a base of understanding and experience. If you want to create a good setting, it helps immensely if you have a firm vision of what a good session or increment of gameable material even looks like. This is what I liked very much about Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate and what should serve as a warning for a game like Mork Borg. There is at least one strong sample adventure in the former, the latter has a very mediocre grab-bag of incoherent elements.

The point is, if you are going to make a game by modifying an existing chassis, a good predictor of whether that game will be any good will be your familiarity (and fondness for) that existing chassis. Creating one’s own retroclone with any hope of rivalling the original, where there are not only alterations and additions to the Gygaxian Building Blocks, but to the core rules themselves, is at the summit of the knowledge pyramid. Any alteration should be measured to create a precise effect that was not present in the original game. And these games do exist in the form of something like ACKs, which was created with a very specific philosophy, a specific area of improvement, and with a nuanced understanding of the original game.

In ultra-lites this hierarchy is largely absent. Most ultra-lites are produced in good faith by well-meaning but ignorant newcomers, in an attempt to alter what are perceived to be fundamental flaws of DnD by the curiously resentful members of the OSR or simply to follow existing trends. I made my own shitbrew! Obviously there is nothing wrong with an enthusiastic GM going out and making his own set of houserules, but putting this in a place where it is in some way a meaningful addition or innovation on the existing game of DnD is another matter entirely.

Fortunately, the solution, as is so often the case, is to simply play the game. When playing the game, repeatedly with different groups, in good faith, with some trust in the designer, the problems with an existing system will either be revealed, or the efficiency and robustness of the system in question will quickly marvel and amaze.

As a special treat, on the Discord we prompted ChatGPT to write a rules-lite retroclone, which I believe is a good illustration of the transient and often worthless nature of the whole movement.

Afbeelding

So if this is comparable to your own efforts at ultra-lite brewing your work is essentially worthless (or whatever the cost of 15 minutes of ChatGPT is worth). I will note in passing ChairnGPT has both a larger library of Gygaxian Building Blocks and better Dungeon and Wilderness procedures then Cairn. Now if only ChatGPT could be taught how to cancel Jim Parkin, it could easily be put in charge of the NSR.

For further delectation, I present to you, a pair of Mork Borg Parodies.

The excellent James Vail delivers a much-needed haymaker to this Hot Topic fascimile of Grimdarkness.



DORK SÖRD

Following in its wake, the excellent Archives of Mu, NAP II 4th place finalist and Patrick Stuart prose doppleganger, climbs over the ropes of the ring to deliver a suprise kangeroo kick to the throat.



With a particularly deserved golf-clap for making one of the enemies their literal DAD.

Darkbad.


In other news, I forgot to bring any books on my vacation, but I did have a notebook.


I have 8 more maps and a tonne of encounters. I might damn well be able to get something out before NAP III even finishes at this rate. I might alter the entrances to L6 and L7 to be further apart. It is going to be an adventure for levels 15+.

Have a great day everyone.




85 thoughts on “The Rules-Lite Sickness & Gaining Momentum

  1. DarkBad looks like a lot of edgy fun. But it was even more amusing/alarming how well ChatGPT came up with a rules lite system. Will ChatGPT ever stop amusing/alarming us?

    I sort-of agree with this, and sort-of don’t. I often find myself feeling that way about your gaming philosophy posts. I think you do well to point out the excesses of certain trends, and I think you’re dead right that there is much to be learned by returning to the basics, as an exercise. Like I’ve said, very Dogme95.

    Still, I find objections springing to mind. Didn’t D&D itself start very loose and light, congealing over time? But they still had fun, and eventually arrived at something more substantial. Is there something to say for that evolutionary process occurring at your own table? If you REALLY want to return to the “roots” of the hobby, why not 0e and Chainmail? By 1e, we’ve reached the trunk of the tree, arguably well-past the roots.

    Also, I remain unconvinced that 1e is some kind of perfect engine, and I’m not even talking just about the obvious absurdities that have been discoursed ad infinitum. I don’t think there were wilderness survival rules (were there?), and even B/X has that. Despite a good chunk of material on domain management, there’s not much to nothing about the broader feudal structure, the role of feasts and religion, etc. I’m not complaining; I’m just saying it’s plenty incomplete, especially if you’re playing outside a certain set of occasionally-explicit expectations.

    I think that rules lite has its place, just like crunchy originalist D&D. I recently started an old-school Paranoia one-off with my group of players, and rather than using the fairly crunchy and somewhat clumsy mechanics, I opted to use the WaRP system that powered Over The Edge 1e and 2e. Light as a feather, it’s a perfect fit. Yes, I know your subject is the D&D-specific OSR, but perhaps there’s only so much value to digging a niche within a niche within a niche?

    Liked by 1 person

    1. No more sophistry. Cairn and it’s ilk are dead ends. There are niches within niches of good, rich gaming, and there is distracting trash.

      Like

      1. You must have barely skimmed my post. “Sophistry”? Is that your fancy way of saying tl;dr? Because I didn’t defend Cairn, Into the Odd, Knave, or whatever currently makes you sad. I’m largely disinterested in those games. This grumpy old-nerd style of grognardic gaming, when taken to its extreme, is as tiresome as its opposite. As long as this-here movement of back-to-basics OSR retains that posture, it will never have any relevance in the face of those despised blue-haired artpunkmen. Which is a shame, because it has some ideas worth contributing buried beneath its weird sweaty defend-the-ramparts autism.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. I am saying no ultra lite has received the degree of play and elaboration that OD&D had as it developed into AD&D, and if you attempted such a thing it would be dismissed as violating the spirit of the ultra lite’s purpose. There *are* new game systems pursuing something that have the scale to run a game like AD&D, ACKs among them.

        The sophistry is acting like there is a place for everything, and everything in its place. There is no need for most ultra lites, no attempt to develop them into a real game, and often no interest among the creators in even playing a real game.

        The goal is not to bring interesting theses to the artpunk antitheses and form a synthesis of new play. It is to abandon the dead ends and accept that many who consider themselves part of the OSR are harmful to the project of playing and building upon the actual game of old school D&D. These people don’t have to be convinced, they have to be kept outside the gate.

        Like

      3. “The goal is not to bring interesting theses to the artpunk antitheses and form a synthesis of new play. It is to abandon the dead ends and accept that many who consider themselves part of the OSR are harmful to the project of playing and building upon the actual game of old school D&D. These people don’t have to be convinced, they have to be kept outside the gate.”

        Is that “The Goal”? Huh, no kidding! If that’s how you want to play, that’s 100% AOK, but as something to broadly espouse, it’s DOA. Imagine a world where that sensibility catches on…because it will never exist. There’s your dead end.

        Liked by 1 person

      4. What do you mean “dead end”? Do you mean there is no interesting game there that will continue to grow, surprise and entertain generations of players? Or do you mean the belief that all that’s needed are a few books from 40+ years ago, plus the rare new work of adventure, setting, or supplement, is a revenue dead end compared to unplayed Kickstarter hardcovers and Patreon subs?

        Like

      5. “What do you mean “dead end”?”

        Yes, what DO you mean? After all, you were the first one to bring that phrase into the discussion.

        But as for what I mean, I mean that this is not the basis for a movement in gaming that will gain any traction beyond a few disgruntled trogs. I’m not talking about products or even mechanics. I’m referring more to ideas, and to a lesser extent, communities.

        I know that you’ll misunderstand this, so let me be more specific. I don’t think that back-to-basics retro-D&D is a dead end. I’m here, aren’t I? What I’m saying is that a movement and a community that is focused on rejection and gatekeeping, rather than focusing on demonstrating what is cool and fun, will never go anywhere. And I’m not talking about Prince, because NAP 1/2/3 are exactly the sort of positivist approach I’m talking about. I’m just tired of groups and people who define their identities by what they are against.

        Why bother with that? It’s extremely easy to avoid that which I do not like. On the internet, I simply go elsewhere. And if you find that there’s nowhere to go for what you like, then consider what I said about how one builds a movement or community by focusing on what one is in favor of, rather than what one is against.

        Liked by 1 person

      6. I agree a positive vision is critical, and that NAP I, II… MMD are important parts of making the OSR alive and non-stagnant. That is the sword. The shield is telling the person who wants to submit to NAP a Knave adventure, an IttO adventure, a Cairn adventure, that no, they are not allowed to do so. That their submission will be ignored, and can go find an appropriate venue.

        NAP is expanding the rule sets and supplements allowed I believe (based on Prince’s earlier statements), and this is good. The Heroic Legendarium is part of the OSR, and is an example of advancing the game forward. Rejecting the cul-de-sacs and distractions of parasitical games is not the same as rejecting progress.

        The need to keep those trying to co-opt the OSR at bay to preserve a place for the real game is not hypothetical. You can look at what happened to GaryCon to see an example of what can happen: an old-school convention playing Gary’s games now has more 5e than 1e, assorted Pathfinder games, and numerous rules lite tables. NTRPG con was featured on Questing Beast’s youtube channel – will it go the same way? Do the players at NTRPG want it to go the same way?

        The NTRPG website says they focus “on old-school Dungeons & Dragons gaming (OD&D, 1E, 2E, or Basic/Expert) as well as any pre-1999 type of RPG produced by the classic gaming companies of the 70s and 80s (TSR, Chaosium, FGU, FASA, GDW, etc). We also support retro-clone or simulacrum type gaming that copies the old style of RPGs (Swords & Wizardry, Castles & Crusades, and others).”

        But then it says: “ANY RPG games are welcome at the Con, be it D&D 4e, Pathfinder, or something we haven’t even heard of…”

        Is it wrong to not want NTRPG to become a 3000 attendee GaryCon south full of cos-players and people who are morally offended by descending AC (sometimes literally morally offended, as it is considered less accessible)?

        Like

      7. I think this is a more reasonable stance, although I still disagree on points.

        “You can look at what happened to GaryCon to see an example of what can happen: an old-school convention playing Gary’s games now has more 5e than 1e, assorted Pathfinder games, and numerous rules lite tables.”

        Well, what’s the big issue here? Are these other games crowding out the old-school games, literally taking away their tables? I’m asking seriously, because I’ve never been. But if the answer is no, then why care that somebody enjoys playing something different at the next table?

        “Is it wrong to not want NTRPG to become a 3000 attendee GaryCon south full of cos-players and people who are morally offended by descending AC (sometimes literally morally offended, as it is considered less accessible)?”

        The last bit, yeah I agree that it’s good to push back against people who are angrily opposed to old-school play. Just like I push back against people who are angrily opposed to more recent play styles.

        But who cares if some people enjoy dressing up or playing their (occasionally dumb) games? Besides, you’re just not going to beat them by sneering at them. That only works when you’re already in the majority, and it’s an unpleasant practice in any case. Just like the zoomers who get salty over descending AC.

        Like

      8. Does the presence of many people at a con who don’t enjoy the same game you do affect you? Yes, obviously so, in many ways. Not just through making things more crowded, pushing you into larger, less intimate venues, and taking up tables and making things louder (e.g., is GenCon the best con for playing old school D&D)?

        The shared experiences and assumptions you have with a random person you meet at the bar is different. The dedication of players at the table to the game is different. I simply don’t believe that you – as a human being of some emotional awareness – don’t understand this. When you visit with old friends, do you want to visit just with them, or do you want to meet them at the bar with their new friends, their work colleagues, their wife’s friends? Either way, you can talk to them and catch up, but do you not understand why the intimacy would be preferred, and why it’s worth seeking out and protecting?

        Like

      9. “Either way, you can talk to them and catch up, but do you not understand why the intimacy would be preferred, and why it’s worth seeking out and protecting?”

        Sure, but clearly to a lesser extent than you do. It’s not worth the rancor and the negative image to be exclusive and hostile. Besides, how are you supposed to persuade anyone if you refuse to have contact with them? They can’t come to your table, your blog, your convention, etc. unless they arrive already accepting all your precepts? Come on.

        If GaryCon and NTRPG are throwing open their doors, maybe it’s because they had a hard time renting a convention center for the small number of attendees. I’d be interested in hearing if there are actually fewer old-school tables at either, or if they are simply a lower percentage of a larger crowd.

        Like

    2. That’s a good point about the LBB roots of D&D. Buttt…even 0e has far more in the way of building blocks and level advancement then any of the recent crop.

      Domain management in the oldschool D&D is not something that has ever been satisfactorily solved. ACKs solving that problem is something that is actually pretty good, one of the wins of the OSR, alongside campaign settings, megadungeons and arguably adventure design. Moving from B/X to 2e, I’m convinced most of the elaborations of the game that were pioneered in 1e produce better results, to say nothing of the tools to for campaign generation. It is the most promising avenue so far.

      IttO was interesting in concept and there is room for ultra-lites for very short games (1-2 hours), but in terms of keeping the hobby alive, and promising avenues, it does seem like it would be a dead end. It is an interesting thought experiment, to sort of embrace the randomness even further and strip away all the class features but I think, much like with Classless rpgs, that the power of niches and a choice of playstyle will re-assert itself.

      Lets see if I can convey my vision of high level gaming on you before NAP III’s end. We have crawled in the dirt for too long. Let us soar like Eagles once more.

      Like

      1. I’m not defending what you call the “recent crop” in the context of a D&D style of play i.e. dungeon-and-hex crawling, leading to domain-management. I have become convinced that oe, 1e and B/X (with perhaps a dash of the better parts of the Companion set) represent a high-water mark in this style of play. Maybe my first post was too wordy; let me bullet it:

        1. Of those old forms of D&D, I think all of them have something to offer. B/X has more concise and complete rules for wilderness travel, for instance. 1e is better than the rest at high-level D&D. I’m not an expert at 0e, but some parts of it are more logical and consistent than later editions. It’s fruitful to play these in order to understand the Original Intent.

        2. One could imagine starting with a rules-lite game, and through house rules and fun experiments, developing something far more complete. Sort of like how D&D originally came into being. One might ask “why reinvent the wheel?”, but it seems like Gary and gang had a lot of fun doing exactly that. Perhaps that is the “true” originalist D&D?

        3. Among the old editions, there are big gaps even within the styles of play they espouse, and yawning chasms outside of those boundaries. ACKS certainly improves upon D&D domain management, but contrast it for a moment to Pendragon. Or even One Ring.

        4. Rules-lite games do have a place, but not within the old-style of D&D campaign play. They are GREAT for one-offs, fine for role-oriented (versus roll-oriented) play, and work for certain genres.

        Like

      2. “Lets see if I can convey my vision of high level gaming on you before NAP III’s end. We have crawled in the dirt for too long. Let us soar like Eagles once more.”

        Well-spoken! I far prefer the positivity of a statement like this to what I often see in this community (see my earlier retort to anon).

        Like

      3. OD&D has Domain Management rules, siege rules, naval rules, campaign rules and is directly linked to Chainmail, and indirectly linked to postal Great Gaming similar to Tony Bath’s. OD&D already is more complete out of the gate than B/X.

        Liked by 1 person

      4. Absolutely. If you compare OD&D and the Expert set side by side you see that there’s effectively nothing (technically: one spell and about 5 monsters) in the latter that isn’t in the former, but the reverse is not true – a big chunk of the campaign-level stuff about domain management and information gathering and upkeep costs and time in the campaign and the “angry villager rule” not to mention the extensive wargame rules for aerial battles, are missing. Even the dungeon and wilderness stuff is less developed – the random monster and treasure tables only go to level 9 (in OD&D they both go to level 13), there’s no discussion of “high level” tricks and traps and stuff like gates to other worlds and high-tech artifacts, there are no item saving throw tables, no higher value jewelry (or exploding-value roll for gems & jewels), and the random castles table is stripped of all its fun and flavor. There is a LOT more content (and, specifically, content that points towards and larger campaign structure rather than series of episodic DM-directed “adventures”) in OD&D than in the Expert set. The line from OD&D to the AD&D DMG is straight and direct; the Expert set is a step backwards.

        Liked by 2 people

      5. When I was consulting with Dan Proctor while he was working on Labyrinth Lord I urged him to include all of that “missing” content from OD&D. Sadly, he declined to do so. I sometimes wonder how things might have turned out differently if he had.

        Like

    3. Three brown books OD&D has a lot more crunch than the rules lite movement. It still as time and resources management, moral / nov management, combat moves such as parry, a full set of monster, magic and item lists, rules for stuck doors, detecting subtly changes in geometry, poison, disease, specific and weird class restrictions, skill checks, I could go on. Basically Garry and Dave got it right first time.

      Like

  2. @Anon. One could argue that the kind of derivative traditional-style dungeon crawling where no innovation is possible, only refinement, is harmful to the OSR.
    I understand and even appreciate Prince battling windmills in the pursuit of the platonic OSR experience, I despise the gatekeeping towards everyone having a different idea.

    Like

    1. There is a great deal of innovation to be done in refining and developing the gameplay of traditional D&D; Prince lists several examples of OSR creators meeting or exceeding the original game above: megadungeons, campaign settings et al. It isn’t about seeking some platonic OSR experience. It is about the game of old-school D&D, the OSR which championed it as it was disappearing, and a bunch of other games that aspire to different things, have different expectations, and offer different opportunities, all trying to muddy the waters about the actual game.

      If someone shows up at your table to play D&D, and pulls out at deck of cards, or Settlers of Catan, or chess, and expects to play, it isn’t gatekeeping to tell them no. If they invite you over to play D&D, and they want you to partake in improv theater, or an immersive GM-guided narrative experience, you are free to leave. And when you do leave, you aren’t missing out on a game of D&D.

      Not everyone doing anything has to be welcomed everywhere. It is completely alright morally, socially and logically to define the game you want, and keep its boundaries clear. You don’t have to watch middle-school kickball when your friend invites you to a baseball game, and you don’t have to play Cairn at an OSR table. You can say it’s not baseball or it’s not OSR – and when you do so you’ll be serving well the actual games you care about.

      Like

      1. Truly well said Anon. Always gatekeep and filter for your table and your game, always. Only the Fatherless and the Cuckold speak ill of the practice.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. “If someone shows up at your table to play D&D, and pulls out at deck of cards, or Settlers of Catan, or chess, and expects to play, it isn’t gatekeeping to tell them no. If they invite you over to play D&D, and they want you to partake in improv theater, or an immersive GM-guided narrative experience, you are free to leave. And when you do leave, you aren’t missing out on a game of D&D.”

        What a strange set of examples, since this has happened nowhere, and nobody is saying that this would be the wrong response. Nobody is ambushing their friends with rules-lite RPGs. Nobody is saying “you must play ShadowDark and cannot leave the table!” There is a big difference between what I just quoted, and “There is no need for most ultra lites, no attempt to develop them into a real game, and often no interest among the creators in even playing a real game.” You are moving the goalposts in order to seem reasonable.

        Your intent behind the second quote is clear: to declare certain modes of play as invalid. My point is thus: you can defend this all you want, but this sensibility will never propel a movement beyond one’s parents’ basement.

        Like

      3. An interesting pair of responses, since one says game bait and switches don’t happen, and the other says they were integral to the creation of D&D.

        Of course it’s fine to introduce interested people to new games, and Gary and Dave and company were constantly prototyping new ones. Most were forgotten, D&D was exceptional. That is different from wanting to play a specific game, and someone coming in and saying it’s the dead end of a dark grog hobby that must adapt to satisfy ultra lite “players” or die.

        And no one will force you bodily to sit at a table and play some wretched ultra lite, but they will insist you let them run it in your server, or discuss it in your sub reddit, or feature it at your con, or champion it in the comment sections of a blog where no one wants it.

        Like

      4. “An interesting pair of responses, since one says game bait and switches don’t happen, and the other says they were integral to the creation of D&D.”

        An interesting interpretation of what is being said, since neither response says those things.

        “That is different from wanting to play a specific game, and someone coming in and saying it’s the dead end of a dark grog hobby that must adapt to satisfy ultra lite “players” or die.”
        …and…
        “…they will insist you let them run it in your server, or discuss it in your sub reddit, or feature it at your con, or champion it in the comment sections of a blog where no one wants it.”

        Again, you’re moving the goalposts. I agree that you cite Bad Things, but they are problems with one’s table, one’s server, or one’s blog i.e. community and social issues. This is a far cry from your original response, in which you were the one saying that rules-lite games were dead ends and that they and their ilk were trash.

        If that was just an emotional reaction to a perceived sense of being under siege from the hordes of unwashed rules-lite players, then it all makes more sense. But otherwise, you are on one hand condemning certain styles of play as completely untenable and then changing tack to state that you merely want to be left alone to do your own thing. I’ll never be against the latter, so more power to that.

        Like

      5. They are tied together by ultra lites not being games of any special worth. They are the Braunstein II and III that didn’t work and are forgotten. The assorted rules from fanzines and APAs that exist because someone wanted to write them, not because people wanted to play them.

        The unwashed rules lite players aren’t harmlessly doing their thing and leaving the OSR alone. And they aren’t building an alternative way of gaming. They are passing through the hobby and tearing down it’s communities and institutions on their way.

        Like

  3. A i said in the Noisms entry, There is no reason that a ruleslite cannot be good, if it focused on the interesting parts instead of the parts nobody cares. If it provided only context by the way of “lighting” itself at the cost of the character options, or combat, for example, more interesting results would appear.
    Searchers of the Unknown, for example, ended up having a separate bestiary: the minimum required context, and suddently it becomes a playable (you still haveto come up with dungeon stocking, with or without procedures, and other game trappings). What you call “context” i call it “the game”. The rest are the rules of the game.
    It is OK that a game is dramatically short if it manages to fit enough info to make it playable. I don’t want to say its imposible: the ONE PAGE VERSION of Into the odd manages to do it, and I’d like to reccomend it as the golden example of what a rules.light should be.

    Like

    1. Even if you come up with something like IttO, yet again, the focus on the whole seems to go from expanding a wide range of gameplay modes and facets into endlessly re-inventing a truncated slice that for most people either exists at the very beginning of the hobby (since people move away from rules-lites), or ends up being something that is ultimately quite removed from it.

      That one-page IttO, what information do you need to actually make that playable? What happens if you give that to a novice GM that has never heard of DnD. How much information do you actually need to have absorbed before you can turn that little slice of game into something worth playing? I’m convinced not so much.

      Like

  4. ”As a vessel for long term campaign play it will run into all the problems of B/X”

    Would you mind elaborating on this? I’m a 1e guy, without much experience when it comes to B/X.

    Like

    1. the math of bx breaks down around 5-6th level. it’s easily adjustable by pumping monster ac, saves, and thac0 a bit. without training costs PCs end up with more money than they need to spend on domains. no xp for magic items.
      basically a bunch of minor things that all add up to it being a bit wonky. if you’re going to run bx, expect to tweak it and/or use some content from ad&d to embellish it.
      I always describe it as ad&d is a fully furnished house that you can move into. bx is a fully built house but there’s not furniture or appliances. od&d is all the lumber you need to build your own house.

      Liked by 2 people

    1. I love Stars Without Number 1e and have played it for years. WWN looks like the fantasy version of it. I am not quite ready yet to call either way, but nothing I have seen alarms me.

      Like

  5. IMO, most rules lite games have more in common with Dungeon World and the story games movement than D&D. The games either require a lot of heavy lifting from the gm or are abstracted to improvised collaborative story telling. This isn’t necessarily wrong but it is not D&D. It’s not that D&D must be complex but the rules set should carry the game, moderate common activities and be viable for campaign play.

    Like

    1. Dungeon World is a game for people that want to pretend to play D&D, or want the trappings of D&D, but do not actually like D&D. Whoever decided to let it into the OSR is nuts. The actual game could not be more different.

      Liked by 1 person

  6. Damn, the layout of your dungeon almost matches the one I’ve been planning to put out on DMs Guild…

    Like

  7. Lol.

    Rule #1 Never argue (online) at length with anyone who remains completely anonymous.

    Rule #2 We’re enjoying the same hobby, but are worlds away from each other. I don’t even recognize the AD&D RAW play-styles some of you champion. Those are just not the types of roleplaying games I prefer, so my “rules-light” focus is elsewhere.

    Rule #3 Niche within niche within niche… or die trying.

    Rule #4 These aren’t actually rules, but whatever. I was on a roll.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. There is a sweet spot with niches where if you go too deep you end up without players. I have a buddy that has this problem. Only wants to play super heavy story based games set in a fantasy inspired Napoleonic era. Time and time again he tries and fails to get a game going and it grates on his soul.

      Like

      1. Ha! That was me trying to entice friends to play Teenagers From Outer Space in high school.

        Like

      2. If that’s his dream, his vision… do not compromise! Instead, become sly. Cleverness > compromise, hoss.

        Like

      3. that’s terrible advice though. you’re going to either trick players into playing a game they don’t want to play at which point they won’t put any effort into and you’ll just resent the initial idea you had or waste time looking for a group when you could have just made a compromise and hung out with your friends and had, gasp, fun.
        Important to note what a compromise actually is. it’s not giving up your vision and acquiescing to others, it’s finding a middle ground where both parties can be happy.

        Like

      4. @YOldeJeffe You misunderstand what I was saying. You’re not tricking anyone. You’re convincing them by presenting the invitation in a different and better way. Hone-in on what’s best about the game you want to play, run, whatever, and then sh0wcase that in a positive light.

        If it’s worthy, you will find others who appreciate whatever it is the same as you. If it’s worthy… A lot of times, we don’t know how to make our vision accessible to others. What works for the most popular version of D&D, just a note that says, “Hey, I’m running DnD 5e, wanna play?” won’t work for specialized games that are only for a select audience.

        Like

    2. Rule #1: Argue in good faith, troll in bad faith, jape in neutral faith, punish in lawful faith, post in Chaotic faith.

      Rule #2: And yet we are bound by something that is called D&D. Now granted, if I dive into O5R and I see a big purple space pyramid on the cover, I am liable to have my expectations shook. But fer goddsake, all this crowding around the thin slice of entry-level micro-gaming. Bleeeegh. At least CDS came with Cha’alt and was actually made with short sessions in mind, and to your credit, you did end up improving it over multiple books as a sort of in-house game.

      Rule #3: Yes.

      Rule #4: RAAAAWWWR.

      Like

  8. This post…and these comments (well, maybe not Anon’s original)…are all excellent.

    I don’t want to sound too esoteric/random, but I have a feeling this “D&D thing” is trending towards apotheosis. In a very good way.

    You folks know that even Patrick Stuart doesn’t play “Patrick Stuart style” adventures. At least the interviews I’ve heard of him, he plays/runs normal D&D stuff. His art is art…he’s an artist, he creates, that’s cool (this world needs artists). That the consumers misconstrue some of his art for PLAYABLE D&D is…mm…unfortunate? I guess? But artists need to eat, too.

    [and we like artists]

    The capability of a primitive AI to create a “rules lite” RPG should tell you all you need to know about “rules lite” RPGs. Hey, here’s an anecdote for folks: *I* created my first “rules lite” RPG circa 1983. I was 9 or 10 years old at the time, and having a sleepover at my buddy’s house. We wanted to play D&D, but I had (stupidly) forgotten my books (solely B/X back in those days). But I had a map and an idea of the encounters, so I just ‘winged it’ (‘wung it?’) with a couple D6 dice we pirated from a random, spare board game. The result was still D&Dish (his character was destroyed by green slime I believe), but was far from satisfying gameplay. For the next five years I never went ANYwhere without my actual rulebooks.

    Rules lend structure to games. Children play make-believe games and resolve conflict with rock-paper-scissors (a rule mechanic adapted to the Baron Munchausen RPG); they could just as easily use random card draws or polyhedral dice to determine outcomes. Those strictures (limitations/rules) help shape the play of the game even as they also help to resolve conflict between players in the throes of passionate play. “I shoot you!” “No, I shoot you!” “Okay let’s roll to see whose shot fires first!” This is the most basic building stone of the RPG.

    [as an aside, it is also why fudging, say, a saving throw roll is so abhorrent…fudging undermines the agreed limitations, i.e. rules, of play]

    Many rules lite RPGs exist outside the OSR. However, most of these (at least, the best ones) are NOT trying to do the kind of thing that D&D tries to do. Instead, they work within particular themes or genres, often to tell specific “stories” (I use that word VERY loosely) or achieve particular cathartic experiences. And that’s fine: there are a lot of reasons why one would want to imagine themselves into a different person, world, and/or situation.

    But “rules lite” versions of D&D tend to be SIMPLIFIED versions of D&D. And D&D in its most simple form is little more than “kill, loot.” Which is fine for a small child, but not very satisfying (in the long term) to the average adult. Certainly not in the year 2023 (“kill, loot” is readily available in a free phone app, for those who aspire to nothing more). To get the most out of D&D, you need to engage in the world building/world exploration that only comes from the “long form” of the game.

    AND…while it is POSSIBLE to achieve this through an edition of D&D like 0E or B/X or 1E, the fact is that NONE of those games are truly sufficient In And Of Themselves. All need additional work (i.e. world building) on the part of an active and engaged Dungeon Master. Without THAT, the game play eventually exhausts the fertile soil in which the seeds of imagination and adventure want to grow.

    1E’s soil is deeper…its crop yield richer and more robust. But even 1E may be exhausted without proper fertilizer by a dedicated farmer. If I (or Prince, or anyone) denigrates the “rules lite OSR” offering, it is because we can see (or, at least, FEEL) that playing those games is like scattering our seeds of imagination and adventure on concrete. 1E is richly fertilized with years of play-testing manure. That’s the main difference. B/X is the “starter garden”…a window box, quickly outgrown by the avid gardener.

    OD&D? Not sure the proper analogy there. But we should not make the mistake of considering 0E (even in its original LBB-sans-supplement form) to be “rules lite.” It was “rules incomplete,” a primordial offering requiring a more comprehensive understanding and inclusion of other (separate game) offerings for full use and enjoyment. It required work and refinement, organization and education to function. It was written for wargamers who had a background in wargaming.

    “Rules lite” OSR offerings should not be equated with OD&D, in any way shape or form.

    Like

    1. My original comment was the answer, not the argument. You bring up the key reason these ultra lites are not D&D, and is so far as they aspire to be like D&D, are failures. OD&D was a field being cleared, AD&D is the most fertile soil we have, ultra lites are cargo cultists hoping that lining up their rocks in rows will provide them a bountiful harvest.

      Like

      1. @ Anon:

        Yes, I see that now with your later comments. But, as I’ve found out over the years, it’s not always the most constructive tactic to start with an answer (sans argument), especially couched in a “fuck you” kind of voice.

        Though I suppose this section of the blog IS labeled “comments” not “argument” or “discussion.” Your comment was valid…just not very conducive or inviting of further dialogue. Do we want to be combative with each other? Maybe…but there’s more than one way to start a fight.
        ; )

        Like

  9. I love the grimdark parody games, that’s hilarious.

    There probably is a space for “rules light” in the industry. As I pointed out on my own blog, the oft-forgotten fact remains that most players can’t be convinced to read much at all: https://coldlightrpgpress.weebly.com/home/light-rules Ideally, you can put something complete in the players’ hands, it’s a lovely dream at least. Part of the reason for the tremendous success of OSE is how good its online SRD is, again just letting the players easily access the rules being a laudable goal. Hard to see most of them as anything other than one-shot systems, though.

    Like

    1. The SRD part is valid and arguably very good (d20 was the pioneer in that regard), and yes, players read almost nothing. However, you, the DM, can onboard players on B/X or OD&D without them having to do so. That’s the beauty and magic of D&D. The promise of doing so slightly quicker while cutting off long term potential is hardly the alluring grail that it is made out to be.

      Like

  10. RE Game Design and Gate Keeping

    Oh, boy…was not able to post my comment last night and now there’s much more discussion to address.

    As I’m sure has been addressed before, the “OSR” term is problematic. At one point (fifteen years ago!) its use meant little more than a movement or state-of-mind that stood in contrast to the generally accepted gaming of the time, i.e. commercially supported, in-print games (Pathfinder, 4E, various “high concept” RPGs, or the slew of indie Story First games coming out of the Forge etc.). If you were playing a WotC game (like GammaWorld 4) or Savage Worlds or Inquisitor or My Life With Master or Sorcerer or Pathfinder or…well, whatever was the “new hotness” (or “on-going lameness” in the case of things like Rifts, World of Darkness, and Shadowrun)…then NO, there was nothing “old school” about you. Old School meant being interested in, discussing, and playing games that were considered dead and buried…certainly “no longer fashionable” (if they ever truly were).

    And, yes, that would mean that 2nd Edition AD&D would have DEFINITELY qualified as “old school” (being out-of-print, extinct, and no longer supported)…except that a LOT of people (including myself) considered 2E to be the mark when D&D went to SHIT and lost its way FOR GOOD and…being so pilloried…was marked as UNWORTHY of inclusion in the new-found love-fest for “old” gaming. That’s probably “bad” for a movement that wants to be inclusive and inviting (if only to introduce older games to new people) but 2E has a lot of shitty, shitty baggage attached to it.

    HOWEVER…now we are in 2023. “OSR” ain’t the same thing now that it was. Now, it is a branding tool for commercial ventures. It’s like calling something “R&B” or “Rock” without any more nuance than that. And because people are making Great Heaping Gobs of MONEY these days (as opposed to what a person writing third party adventures for AD&D in 1993 would have made), there is a vested interest in keeping that brand going and milking it for every silky bit of currency one can wring from the consuming purveyors of OSR product.

    Rules lite RPGs in the vein of, say, Cairn or ShadowDark or whatEVER…are (from a game design perspective) evolutionary Dead Ends. But that doesn’t mean they lack VALUE (neither for their creators, nor their fans/buyers); if I was so inclined I could list out half-a-dozen good reasons. But regardless: dead ends. And for individuals (like myself) who are interested in some “higher form” of gaming, they represent a waste of time.

    But as I wrote in my first comment: ANY version of “good” D&D (0E, B/X, 1E) requires more effort, energy, and work to function at its higher level. The advantage of playing 1E is that it is LEAPS AND BOUNDS ahead of the other editions. So much so that with the earlier (0E) or basic (B/X) versions you end up having to add-add-add stuff that 1E already includes, just to get them up to par.

    Okay, so, now…gatekeeping.

    I’m in favor of an inclusive hobby. I’m in favor of teaching new people the joys of the tabletop role-playing hobby. I think the hobby has a lot to offer people…and society in general!…that other pastimes don’t.

    There are many ways to introduce people to the hobby…plenty of ways for people to get their feet wet without diving head first into the deep end. And I can see how a game with fewer rules (and pages) might seem more easy and accessible to new folks. It’s for this very reason that I suggest basic sets (like B/X) as good starting points for new participants…they provide a way to try out D&D (a very dissimilar game from other RPGs) without being overwhelmed by minutia and complexity (and thus being soured on the hobby). Other tabletop games (RPGs and otherwise) have offered similar basic versus advanced rules, “ramping up” knowledge and understanding while teaching game play.

    But “rules lite” clones don’t have this end result in mind: rather, their goal is to produce a commercial product that sands off corners and cuts out complexity in order to provide a streamlined ruleset for folks uninterested in more nuanced game play. Or, to put it not-so-kindly: these creators want to MAKE MONEY by DUMBING DOWN the game for LAZY individuals. In my opinion, such games are fine for a pick-up lark every now and then (between sessions, while waiting at the bus station, or whatever), but I’d prefer to NOT see them as “featured events” at Con games purporting to facilitate more advanced RPG play and engagement…whether those RPGs are D&D or ANY other RPG you care to name.

    [I *have* played RISUS at conventions before, but that was because the GM at the time had no other RPG that fit the game they wanted to run: an adventure on the Isle of Misfit Toys. However, RISUS is the exception that proves the rule as it is a GENERIC light rules system that can be used for a variety of genre emulation, especially humorous or satirical. The “rules lite” systems being discussed in this post are all D&D clones]

    Unfortunately, such games tend to muddy waters, create bad habits, and spread misinformation (because players who learn the hobby through such entry points can end up with wrong assumptions of game play when they ‘graduate’ to a more complex/involved version of D&D). However, as I think Bryce’s reviews have aptly demonstrated, the “OSR” moniker has come to mean almost NOTHING these days, aside from being a commercial branding of product…and without appropriate Quality Control (i.e. “gatekeeping”) I think it’s safe to say that such offerings are here to stay. As long as there’s money to be made.

    Striving for the constructive is about the best any of us can do, at this point. But there will always be weeds in the garden.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. I like this comment a lot even if I only agree with approximately 66.6% of it. Thoughtful discourse is good etc.

      I just wanted to point out one thing: genre is what happens when community transforms into market. That’s what happened with OSR, and it’s what happens to any idea in our society that becomes successful enough. It only proves that in this day of media fragmentation, you don’t have to be all that successful as a community to be worth making a buck off of.

      By the way, just to clarify, I never exactly called 0e “rules-lite.” I did call it “loose and light,” but I did not intend to equate it with any of these evil-bad-naughty systems. I was referring more to its lack of completeness, more in light of things that Prince has said previously when contrasting 1e with B/X. I can’t imagine a world where I prefer 1e to B/X.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Welllll…not to get too deep into it (though I suppose I already am), I was referring in part to your initial comment where you wrote:

        “Still, I find objections springing to mind. Didn’t D&D itself start very loose and light, congealing over time? But they still had fun, and eventually arrived at something more substantial. Is there something to say for that evolutionary process occurring at your own table? If you REALLY want to return to the “roots” of the hobby, why not 0e and Chainmail? By 1e, we’ve reached the trunk of the tree, arguably well-past the roots.”

        I find the premise here faulty: in my estimation D&D did not start “loose and light, congealing over time.” Rather, it attempted to add additional layers of gaming onto what was already going on (war gaming), and THEN with play, ended up adding more and more rules and systems to meet a particular demand. The congealing or, rather, codifying occurred with the advent of 1E. The only thing “loose and light” was the manner in which a bunch of non-professionals approached game design and business (i.e. like rank amateurs who were learning on the go).

        But I would not say their objective was EVER to create something loose and lightweight. I think it’s a mistake to presume primitive rule write-ups as synonymous with a desire for simple game systems. And I can cite numerous examples in the original LBBs to back-up my assertion.

        This is in stark contrast to the goal and purpose of these “rules lite,” “D&Dish” systems, that are designed from the get-go to be abstract and loose-y goose-y. I suppose I could say they are “incomplete on purpose,” whereas OD&D was just the starting point for what was (eventually determined to be) a much more complete and comprehensive game.

        Which…again…doesn’t mean such systems are without value. Nor does it mean their creators should be crucified or vilified or discouraged from exercising a creative (or financial) endeavor. Are they “more dangerous/destructive” to the hobby than 5th Edition? Or One DND? Probably not. But, then, I’m not heavily invested in the whole “OSR” moniker, so I don’t care (too much) how much they dilute brand quality. It’s not my brand.

        OOoo…one more thing. I dig this line:

        “…genre is what happens when community transforms into market”

        BUT I’m not sure it’s exactly true (although I grok the sentiment of the paragraph and agree). That’s probably not how I use the term genre (of course, I might be misusing the word)…but even so, I don’t really consider “OSR” to be a genre. I mean is “crappy insipid fantasy” a genre? It’s definitely a “thing” (and there’s a lot of it out there and a lot of it wearing the OSR brand mark), but I wouldn’t put in the same category of labels as, say, “steam punk” or “space opera.” If OSR IS a genre label, then I’m afraid it’s a bit of a derogatory one…and one whose general reputation is trending downwards.

        Which doesn’t mean it won’t still SELL. 2E sold, despite declining quality, right up until TSR went belly-up.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. “Loose and light” was definitely an unfortunate turn of phrase. 0e definitely wasn’t “light,” and “loose” is a very vague word in this context, although I think it’s more defensible. So I take it all back! The only things I’ll try to salvage about my comparisons to 0e are as follows:

        1. I personally don’t see 1e as the pinnacle edition that a lot of you guys consider it to be. I think that all of the early editions (0e, B/X and 1e) had something to offer, and did certain things better than the others. This isn’t directly relevant to the subject of Prince’s article, but just my own feeling about the different editions that are so often discussed here.

        2. More relevant to the subject at hand, I think that the evolution of Chainmail to 0e and beyond shows that Gary, Dave and The Boys were open-minded and experimental, and willing to fill in the gaps as they progressed. I do think that you can start with an incomplete or simple system and develop it further at your own table through house rules and GM content, whether it’s an off-the-shelf lite system or something the GM made himself. In fact, I think that this same process has happened time and time again at many a table. I often feel that role-playing is at its best as a kind of folk tradition. That is, after all, how it started.

        What would be the value of this? For one, it’s easier to get started. For another, some people actually enjoy this sort of thing. And third, it requires less initial buy-in from your players, and we all know that players are simple-minded creatures, easily distracted by shiny jangling objects and loud noises.

        Do you have to do it this way? Should you ignore and sneer at the decades of tradition and purposeful design. No and absolutely not, respectively. That’s why I do think there is substantial value in the exercises of this particular sub-sub-sub-community. In fact, if you want to take your table off-road, you should definitely first find out what has worked in the past, and why.

        Like

      3. Hey, Edge:

        RE #1

        While I’m one of those geezers that see 1E as the “pinnacle edition” of D&D that doesn’t mean I don’t see that other editions had (and have) “something to offer.” They did and they do, and I’ve gotten a LOT of mileage out of both B/X and OD&D. But B/X is not especially conducive to long-term play (which is D&D’s highest expression), and OD&D…well, the longer I worked with it, I found I had to keep adding and adding and adding…and I could see what I was building towards was (pretty much) AD&D.

        So why not just take the shortcut straight out of the gate?

        BUT…YES. These other editions DO have things to offer. Later editions (2E, 3E, etc.)…mm, maybe not so much? Their shortcomings hurt their positives in a lot of ways, though I do know some hardcore Pathfinder folks (who started waaaaay back in the day with AD&D). THEY might be a little cracked, however.
        ; )

        RE #2

        I don’t disagree (much) with this. I just question the value of using a system like Chairn (or whatever) to reinvent the wheel. I can see value in WRITING a game like this, just not in playing it or developing it simply to end up with something akin to, well, AD&D. For me, it’s a better use of my time to refine a game that already exists in a more developed form (like 1E), rather than starting with someone’s deliberate attempt at “playing small.” Just a lot less effort/time spent on the work.

        Hope that makes sense.

        Liked by 1 person

  11. I think JB has a point, at least one that I can sympathise with (if I understand him properly): the rules-lights are making the game into something that is ‘smaller’ than what it has been and can be. I can sympathise with making some of AD&D’s rules more elegant, that’s what DMs have been doing since they started playing the game, but making the game something less than all it can be for the sake of economy of rules is not revolutionary, or evolutionary at that. I can understand that some people have busy lives and want to run something requiring less time-commitment, or that some gamers are ‘D&D tourists’ after some quick, easy to organise and manage ‘fun’. But I’m not much interested in what they have to offer us connoisseurs of the game, and if you’re an AD&D or OD&D fan, you’re a connoisseur in my book. The rules-lights don’t add to the game, they subtract from it and make it something lesser than it can be.

    Like

    1. The muse of Air Canada and what must have been the constriction of blood to my lower extremities decided that Slyth Hive was first, so now it is first. In 80% completion mode (excluding playtesting).

      I am going to try to deprive myself of reading material more often. That was quite the sprint, even if I did end up air-dropping a copy of Arabian Night Vol 1. halfway into my vacation.

      Like

  12. Maybe the curse of the Rules-lite systems is not their existence, but rather the praise and attention they get. As Noisms points out, we don’t actually need any of them; as several have noted, they seem to encourage less than stellar output. Certainly the better ones can be used for a fun lightweight game, and if they are advertised as such I would not complain. I do think some (possibly Shadowdark, but let us wait for the full version) will be useful in providing a new home for 5E players during WotC’s attempted divorce from the roots of the game, and may generate interest in dungeon exploration and emergent story (the carousing tables might turn out to be a fun way to spend excess gold), rather than the tedium of the five room adventure. But to leave Plato’s Cave, it really helps to have understanding of the past.

    Liked by 1 person

  13. The question for rules-lite games is, who are they for?

    What’s better for introducing a new player to dnd in a one shot environment? Something that fits on one double sided page or a tome? I just want things to be easy for my players to do. If the game isn’t laid out so my dad can make a character in five minutes than what good is it when I pull it out for the family? There’s an artistry to elegant onboarding to the hobby that doesn’t lose much substance.

    Sure chat GPT can generate the text, but what about the layout? Can they make it easy to understand?

    Like

    1. I’d thought about this a bit in the past. My feeling with Into the Odd is that it potentially a bad choice for introducing the game because it gives the players very few mechanical handholds to grasp. It is also an esoteric and lose setting. Mothership i would be more inclined to use as it is rules lite but it is clear as to how a player might use or even manipulate the system. For D&D i would probably opt for Dungeoncrawl Classics if i was worried about players getting the concept of D&D. It has a universal die roll system but its not a pure freeform game. I tend to think Rules lite game are mainly for people who have played for a while and are reacting against crunchier systems with a purist minimalism. For some it might be that their game is primarily oneshots and these systems make that quicker and easier.

      Like

    2. I genuinely wonder what the difference is between the elegant onboarding of explaining them how to make a character for B/X, or indeed, it coming with a quickstart page and the aforementioned (does your 2 page leaflet have monsters and equipment too?). Even so, I recognize the need for something quick for micro-dosing DnD but dear lord the focus.

      Like

  14. The best rules light setting I have read is the Judges Guild supplement The City State of the Invincible Overlord – CSIO – from 1976.

    A Broad space is provided for the players by the writers with Thin or Light coverage for the DM, who has to provide the Depth.

    Like

    1. Setting is a different story. I love City State and Wilderness and would consider it a prime example of doing a sandbox Setting right. Light on fluff, heavy on interactive material, and just enough suggestions and tentpoles to allow you to deduce your own setting from it. If the OSR is to be credited, the move from gigantic encyclopedias back to material like Carcosa and Yoon-Suin should surely be among the good things.

      Like

    2. Setting lightness with breadth appeals to creative AD&D DMs who are few but very influential in this little circle. It isn’t obvious but cultural mash-ups written with flair and a light touch are prized more than deep dives into specific cultures, and I believe this is because gamers are not best suited for these deep dives, there are historians and academics for that.

      Lightness is an accomplishment for writer-gamers because lightness tends to be uninteresting, devoid of culture and history, random.

      Like

      1. When it comes to settings, I offer two considerations.

        – As opposed to the cultures in a book, the supplement must be gameable, and to a degree conform to the implicit assumptions of the D&D. The type of depth you are thinking about is hard to combine with this. I would say more then gamers GAMES are not necessarily suited to this format.

        – With depth comes ability. The one brilliant, undeniable success in terms of a gameable setting with depth is M.A.R. Barker’s Tekumel. What others come close? There are many who can write a sword & sorcery short story, but how many can write an epic fantasy like Tolkien?

        Like

      2. Even Tekumel carries a very big asterisk because it’s famous but AFAICT very rarely actually played outside of a very narrow circle that’s generally only about 1 or 2 steps (at most) removed from Barker. The seating’s champions and evangelists seem to be almost to a person people who were close to and played under Barker himself, and for everyone else it’s just something that sits on the shelf and inspires admiration and maybe imitation but little if any actual play.

        I’m increasingly convinced that “deep” or lore-heavy settings in rpgs only work if they’re leveraging other media and the players get their familiarity from that, so they come into the game already oriented, and not from either playing the game or reading game books. That doesn’t mean they have to be licensed properties – if you’re GW or FASA or TSR and can publish a fuck- ton of 40K, Battletech, and Forgotten Realms novels that works – but that’s not really a feasible path for a DIY indie creator. Vampire and Shadowrun and Rifts and maybe Deadlands were exceptions to this in the 90s, but I think in all of them it’s key that they’re mostly dealing in a stew of pre-existing popular cliche elements (just like D&D) and that the actual unique setting-lore stuff had way less to do with their success and appeal than the fans would have you think.

        Liked by 1 person

      3. Damn, that’s astute Trent (especially regarding the “successful settings” of Deadlands, Rifts, and VTM…WEG’s Star Wars probably falls into that category, too).

        Yeah. Currently helping a longtime creator/GM publish her setting/world, but much of its building blocks come from really old (70s-80s) tropes and inspiration. Makes a great melange for a geezer like myself, or the folks she runs games for, but who knows if the appeal will reach a younger crowd? Guess we’ll find out.

        Like

      4. I have to agree with Trent here; in my formative gaming years Tekumel was the canonical example of a setting so abstruse and involved it was basically impossible to get into. It’s notable that even the most playable edition of the game, the original EPT itself, casts initial PCs as barbarian rubes fresh off the boat and sequestered in Jakalla’s Foreign Quarter, so that the characters will be as ignorant and befuddled of everything they see as the players are. Barker himself must have realized that immersion into the setting was a tall order.

        Like

  15. The real killing blow of those ChatGPT rules-lite generations is how it keeps repeating the mantra of “this is just a basic versatile procedure that you should modify and expand upon in play”. That’s so on the nose it made me see stars.

    Like

  16. I think it is useful to keep a successful product in mind when discussing these matters because abstractions tend to dissipate our efforts. Let us contemplate the worthy CSIO.

    The immediate advantage of Light (which is random, incoherent, uncultured) content is that it is easily extended. It requires no thought to extend the city/map because mashing cultures is ok and you can easily generate ideas.

    I think the giant city map blows people away, deservedly, and they read some stuff and refer to the giant map and sit back in awe. But the more I read the more I think between map and local trivia you need a bulk of events/happenings/life many narratives in the city that the players should be keen to get involved in.

    Like

  17. As seems to be emerging from the last few replies, I think that the only value in the light games are if they are specifically written as entry points to more sophisticated games. Having read through many of the frontline clones none of them are as good an introduction as Moldvay, but even that is a bit too long and ancient in its layout for modern tastes.

    I like Mausritter as an accessible and light game that’s easy to explain and understand and quick to play, and its simple premise has enough flavour to be engaging and good for a bit of repeat play. But JB’s right in that the light games don’t have enough depth to be suitable for long term play.

    Like

  18. Thoughts about an old topic:

    I’m deep into work on my entry for NAP3. The first draft is almost done. Despair all ye who enter blah blah blah…

    Anyway, I had some more thoughts about this discussion. I’ve been using OSE Advanced for my mechanics and content, and I have to admit that it is sometimes a pretty confining context for working on a high-level OSR adventure.

    There, I said it! Even further: B/X alone would be completely unworkable. There’s just not enough content. Ah, but there’s the rub!

    I’m still not on board with this idea that anything short of 1e lacks the mechanics for long-term (potentially) high-level D&D. I don’t need all those rules about sages and hirelings. Honestly, a lot of them are pretty silly. It’s been said before, but 1e comes from a very American mindset. So much of what you do (in those rules) is based on spending gold. Does that make even the slightest bit of sense in a points-of-light world, where economic activity is likely to be via bartering? Resounding no. If you want to see what a believable medieval economic simulation looks like, take a peek at (the much-neglected) Wolves of God. I mean, christ, it’s kind of insane to even think that all of these gold coins are the same size and purity. Who is checking purity, and how?

    And the rest of it can be ruled at the table. Do I really need maneuverability classes for flying creatures? I can do that on the fly.

    But content is really important if you want to go high-level. As part of my adventure, I’ve had to create four different parties of six characters, and give each character (at least) five magic items. (Long story.) Even with OSE Advanced, that’s a HUGE PITA, unless I want to repeat items (there are many Rings of Protection…big sigh).

    With something like LotFP, try to imagine that! Sure, everyone is unique, but they are so unique that any strategizing and tactical planning is going to break down. High-level Lamentations play does not, and should not, exist.

    Partway into this exercise, here are my conclusion: high-level D&D is it’s own thing, completely disconnected from other role-playing experiences. It can be interesting and fun. But other games shouldn’t even try to go there. Stick with Mythras, or something like that. Those are great games that don’t try to be something they aren’t. The idea of a 8th level PC for LotFP or even DCC…those shouldn’t exist. They are absurdities that only make sense in the context of a curated one-off.

    That said, is there something special about high-level D&D? Eh, I’m still not sure. We’re talking about what is actually a very narrow experience that came out of a bunch of sessions run by some nerds with (apparently) waaaaaay too much free time in the late 70s. I can’t emphasize that enough. If you’re playing D&D “honestly,” I don’t think you’re likely to get beyond 3rd level. And once you do, the difficulty curve is completely transformed. I think it would take years of play in D&D specifically to opine on this, so I’m going to refrain from making a hard call. But I have my doubts.

    Tell me I’m wrong. Tell me you’ve run a genuinely OSR campaign with hardcore players who survived from 1st level to 5th any beyond. I’d be very curious to hear about how long that took, and what it was like. Did you get there without fudging the die rolls or giving the player OOC advice?

    Like

    1. [Entry]

      Excellent.

      [B/X]

      B/X alone would probably be insufficient (although, say, an adventure for levels 8-12 should be possible theoretically). In terms of content, RC or BECMI should include enough material to get started.

      [Longterm high level]

      I think its fairly apparent B/X is inadequate for higher levels. This is not so much because of sages/hirelings (although those rules are cute), but because there is not enough content for it and because it has not been ‘tempered’ to operate on that level. Basic DnD was created to be a simplified version and didactic tool for younger players. It does not have the elaboration and control mechanisms of the more advanced edition. B/X and BECMI came afterward, but these systems lack the sophistication coming from years of play. The primary goal is not realism, but to create a robust system that facilitates a variety of actions and permutations.

      That being said: There is no reason OD&D/Swords & Wizardry or ACKs could not be used for higher level adventures. Both versions are more solid.

      [Creation of Premades]

      Yes it is something that is not quite figured out. I don’t think there is neccessarily a ‘right’ answer. I do think it helps to include premades with these types of adventures because loadout is likely to have a dramatic effect on performance. Have you considered augmenting the stuff in OSE advanced with items from the DMG section of the C series? There are some interesting magic items in there, although some might need some fine-tuning.

      [High level Lotfp]

      Au contraire. Lotfp essentially deals with the problem of character power Exploding as you go up in levels by curtailing it. The availability of magic items is reduced to almost nothing. Powers are gimped. In the simpler, smooth-brained milieu thus created, the GM has to do less work to challenge the PCs. Although Lotfp is very deadly and lacks the ability to raise characters from the dead, I have had characters survive to reach level 4-5. It is not inconceivable they could reach 7-9. Going beyond that does indeed seem like completely pointless.

      As for DCC, DCC itself is a bit disconnected, very hyper-charged and conducive to tournament modules. I don’t think any violence will be done to it by trying to test the upper regions of the level range. And characters are a bit more survivable then in B/X.

      [Disconnect]

      We shall see. I am convinced years of ‘honest’ gaming in AD&D should work to 8-12 minimum. Death threshold, raise dead etc. This is all feasible. There are reports of people getting higher (say, Froidevals campaign was said to have gotten into the 20s) but this is threadbare. Huso’s capstone campaign, based on his homegame, it set at 14+. Level 1-3 of D&D is the tutorial level I think. Even with Death at 0, my RC Corona campaign made it well into 4-6 territory and could have gone beyond I think. My B2 game also had no fudging, it did use Death’s Door rules and ended up at level 4, with no signs of slowing down, before I moved on to my high level experiment. I don’t think a ban on OOC advice is neccesarily a fair condition, although I do try to generally be neutral and refrain from giving players advice. Behavior that is both foolish and eats up a lot of time may be corrected via OOC advice I think.

      Do not despair. And even if your misgivings are true: This is an interesting variant, rich, varied, exciting. I played Slyth hive in person over the weekend and a grand time was had by all. I look forward to session 3 with you guys!

      Like

      1. [B/X]

        Yeah, I’m copping to it. The content just isn’t there. Part of the reason I didn’t see this is because I’ve been playing with OSE Advanced instead of actual B/X, and it adds a TON of content. And it still seems a bit light in the magic item department.

        [Pre-mades]

        I’m trying to stick to OSEA just to prove it can be done. And my adventure does have some special demands; in addition to the PCs, there are three competing parties of high-level adventurers, and they all have a minimum of five magic items. That means a total of 120 magic items just for my pre-made parties. And some of them “cheat” by sneaking in a few more. I just finished statting them all up yesterday and it was pretty tiresome to figure out each loadout so it was fairly unique and actually useful.

        [High-level LotFP/DCC]

        Good point with Lamentations; I forgot how rare magic items were meant to be. DCC is actually pretty parsimonious with magic items as well, now that I think about it, but it’s so gonzo that things can get a bit random. I probably should have left them out of the conversation.

        [Actual Play]

        I know it’s been done, but a lot of the stories I’ve heard sounded like the GM was really really soft.

        And yes, high-level D&D definitely *IS* fun for one-offs. I’m really looking forward to the next session of Slyth Hive!

        Like

    2. A great deal to unpack in the above, so I’ll attempt brevity and address just some of it:
      (i) 1E (G1-3, G1-3, S1, S4, WG4) and 2E (Night Below, City of Skulls) can support high level play. Can B/X? X10 maybe? You are suggesting it cannot, and if I had to place a bet, I would agree, something more is needed. That is something this contest may answer; the extra doesn’t have to be exactly 1E;
      (ii) At low levels in D&D, the corpses pile up. Just how high will depend on how much help the referee provides, e,g, bleeding out to -10 before death, access to raise dead at local temples if you have enough cash. But when you reach levels 4-5, things change, and now losses are more likely to be occasional single deaths for groups sensible enough to retreat when out of their depth/low on resources;
      (iii) Consider three classics of beginning level 1E play, N1, U1 and T1: they all end with a big death or glory battle for lots of treasure and promotion to higher levels for the survivors. But you can tip the odds with sensible play, respectively taking the ranger and his wife along with Ramne as allies, attacking with surprise and casting sleep spells on the deck of the Sea Ghost, and hiring Elmo and using a command spell against Lareth;
      (iv) Finding clever and effective combinations of spell and magic item use at high levels is a skill. You can easily recognise the difference between the inexperienced, experts using unfamiliar characters, and experts who know their characters and their comrades inside out. The last category can achieve the seemingly impossible. (They also tend to have a very long list of magical goodies.)
      (v) The “wild west frontier/medieval/swords and sorcery” mashup of 1E is not realistic, but it was inspired.

      I’m looking forward to reading your entry.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. (i)
        Right now, I think that what makes B/X hard to use for high levels is the dearth of content. Especially for a contest like this where we’re sticking with the book and (presumably) shooting for high power levels. If you’re running B/X in a more toned-down campaign where PCs and monsters had minimal access to magic items, I don’t see how it can’t work, but that’s not what I’m going for, here.

        (ii)
        It’s true that you really cross a threshold once you hit 5th level (3rd level M-U spells!). And you cross another one when you get regular access to resurrection magic. Even so, certain kinds of save-or-die mechanics can turn even high level games into a curb stomp. It’s definitely harder to balance. What happens when a 12th level party runs into a squad of Umber Hulks? I’ll let you know once I playtest this puppy.

        (iii)
        Spending time and effort on intel is IMO what separates the man-nerds from the boy-nerds. Sadly, I’ve seen plenty of experienced players rush to “get to the adventure.” I think a lot of them have been conditioned by “overly-balanced” adventures and nurturing GMs.

        (iv)
        Good use of your options is #2 after hunting for intel. Honestly, in D&D that can be more the province of spellcasters than the brute squad, but magic items give everyone some room for cleverness.

        (v)
        Medieval capitalism can get silly, but yes it can work. Like many other aspects of fantasy gaming, sometimes you just have to shrug and go with it. These days I’m more intrigued by settings that hew a little closer to social realism. I think you can still have the frontier aspect.

        (my entry)
        Thanks! I’m very happy with the direction it’s going. I just have to figure out a way to trim about 23 pages. I’m sure I can get rid of at least 15 with fonts and margins, although your eyes may pay the price…

        Like

    3. “Tell me I’m wrong. Tell me you’ve run a genuinely OSR campaign with hardcore players who survived from 1st level to 5th any beyond. I’d be very curious to hear about how long that took, and what it was like.”

      What the hell is a “genuinely OSR campaign?” You mean a D&D campaign? Sure: you’re wrong. Done it. Currently playing with kids (under the age of 13) whose levels are all 6th – 7th, having started at 1st. They’d be higher if we played more regularly, but I’ve been busy and our last session was in June. But that’s not high level…that’s just mid-level.

      B/X tops out around 12th, in terms of effectiveness. You could probably keep it going, but the system lacks a lot of depth and (as Prince wrote) a lot of the control mechanisms baked into 1E’s system. A lot of advantage gained without offset. BECMI’s worse: you can gain 10s of thousands of x.p. for just sitting on your ass, doing nothing but collecting domain income. Very boring play, that.

      I’ve worked characters into the high teens “without fudging the die rolls or getting OOC advice.” But only with 1E. I’ve had players do the same. But only with 1E. It doesn’t take too long with regular, dedicated play…a couple years, maybe. Not that long, really. And because of the robustness of the system, it’s generally entertaining (and challenging) time spent.

      [that was in the mid-late 80s, BTW, not the 70s]

      RE The Dearth of B/X Content

      May I introduce you to my B/X Companion book for some new monsters and treasures, especially designed for high level play? It is NOT on the accepted list of NAP3 supplements, but I begrudge no one for using its ideas for their 10 homebrew items. Hell, rip off some greater demons and fiendish magic items from my Comes Chaos supplement, or use those concepts to spur your own imagination.

      Also: don’t forget that the most dangerous opponents for high level characters are often (NPC) high level characters. This holds true across most editions of D&D.

      RE Complaints About Game Economy

      Don’t waste your time on such silliness; it’s a false barrier to progress. The fantasy economy works itself out with world building, which is solely in the DM’s hands. If you prefer less work, use 1E.

      RE Suitability of OD&D, LotFP, DCC, etc. to High Level Play

      None of these were originally designed to support high level play. OD&D’s Greyhawk supplement was introduced to help bridge the gap when play exceeded the parameters of the original books, but it didn’t culminate into a solid, working system till 1E.

      Like

      1. I think the idea with BECMI is that you gain domain income but that the GM prepares a suitably challenging series of events so you are prevented from simply camping in your domain and gathering its income. This was never adequately worked out, but obviously, invasions and calamities should inflict damage to your domain if it is not checked. I am extremely skeptical if people ever played that way though.

        [B/X companion]

        I shall have to examine it thoroughly at one point, alongside Heroic Legendarium. Perhaps it can be canonized.

        Like

      2. [Tell me I’m wrong]

        Cool, glad to hear! I’ll take that into consideration before my next diatribe…

        [B/X Companion]

        Very familiar with its grandeur. I’ve already used all my slots for off-book content, though. Most of them are monsters or NPCs with eccentric abilities. They’re all very purpose-built, and it was tough keeping it down to ten. There’s also a ton of reskinned monsters, like a pair of dunkleosteus’ that just use the stats for giant sturgeons.

        [The Most Dangerous Game]

        Oh yeah, that’s definitely a feature in my adventure. Three parties of high-level NPCs decked out with magic items, spells, and bad attitudes. It’s very much a feature of my adventure; the primary dungeon is essentially a competition. Dungeon-as-gameshow, I like to call it.

        [Suitability of OD&D, LotFP, DCC]

        That’s my impression. I’m sure they can be made to work, but there’s a reason that most published DCC adventures are funnels.

        [Progress]

        I literally got it down to 50 pages yesterday by playing with layout. I’m sure there’s room to trim the verbiage, but this adventure is crammed full of Stuff, and I probably need to add some more details. Still thinking about whether to describe other teams’ progress through the main dungeon exactly or abstractly.

        Like

Leave a comment