[Adventure] Tomb of Horrors (AD&D); Where mettle falters the butt doth suffer persecution

[Adventure]
Tomb of Horrors (1978, Green Cover)
Gary Gygax (TSR)
Level 10 – 14

Tomb of Horrors

In the far reaches of the world, under a lost and lonely hill, lies the sinister TOMB OF HORRORS. This labyrinthine crypt is filled with terrible traps, strange and ferocious monsters, rich and magical treasures and somewhere within lies the evil demi-lich.

With those dread words Gary Gygax heralds what is unquestionably one of the most famous and simultaneously hated adventures ever made. Lauded as the most difficult, the most unfair dungeon of all time, its very mention is enough to inspire wailing and butthurt wherever it goes. A select few reviews hold it up as the pinnacle of oldskool gaming, many more moan piteously at the degradation and torment they suffered in their infant years at the hands of sadistic thirteen-year old dungeon masters. Seven Seas-designer John Wick has publicly stated that he was raped by ToH. Tomb of Horrors raped his butt. Bryce Lynch wakes up screaming and covered in cum every night [1], haunted by charles dickens-ghosts of a thousand terrible adventures that take it as inspiration. Some trollop on Rpg.net gave it a 1 for substance. ‘WAAAAAH’ it states [paraphrased], ‘WAAAAAH IT RAPED MY BUTT.’

In the OSR it seems respected if not necessarily remembered fondly, with the Dungeon of Signs review standing out as the most thoughtful one I could find on short notice. As a reviewer, how you feel about Tomb of Horrors is probably one of the most useful benchmarks one can have in divining one’s vision on gaming. Therefore it should come as no surprise that I fucking love Tomb of Horrors and it would be a feather in my GM-crown to raise a group to the skill level where they actually stand a chance of beating it. No one I game with EVEN COMES CLOSE.

From whence the difference in perspective? How can different people get such radically different impressions from the same game? Generational inbreeding would seem to be the obvious explanation, only I know for a fact not every detractor of Tomb of Horrors originates from rpg.net. For long seconds I pondered until I arrived at last at the truth; the Tomb of Horrors problem is context.

Let me tell you a story. The year is 1975. DnD is booming, elves have one gender, there’s tits on the cover of Eldritch Wizardry and Lorraine Willaims is but an ominous cloud on the horizon yet all is not well in Lake Geneva. Robert J. Kuntz just had his 14th level Fighter take a dump in the severed neck-stump of yet another dead Red Dragon. “What else have you got Gaygax?,” he sneers, as he pours his coffee over yet another of Gary’s dungeon maps in celebration. “Nothing,” Gygax says, swallowing sadness, returning home and angrily plowing his wife and giving up halfway through. “What’s wrong,” she asks but he just shakes his head, weeping angry tears.
Every goddamn convention Gygax is accosted by hordes of primordial catpiss men, crusty and hoary with body odour in a way our modern mind can no longer fathom, telling him what a limpdicked bitch game he has and asking him whether he can’t come up with something tougher for their 20th level fighter with a +5 Vorpal Sword and making dicksucking motions. At first he is patient, but eventually he figures that if he is going to ever look at himself in the mirror without flinching ever again, he’d better goddamn lay down the law on these ruffians. “There are only two types of men in this world. Dungeon Slaves,” he says himself as he looks in the mirror, clenching a fistful of polyhedrals until his hands bleed while Nine Inch Nails plays in the background, “and Dungeon Masters. Which one is it Gaygax?” So he sits down and makes the ultimate dungeon, a dungeon that tests the player’s D&D skills until they snap. You think you are hot shit? You are nothin.’ Nine billion dead monty haul characters later, DnD is saved, the king is back and Gygax plows his wife like never before. [2]

It is in this light that I will judge Tomb of Horrors and no other. A true challenge for experienced players of levels 10-14, possessing vast storage of magic items, and requiring mastery of AD&D’s comprehensive assortment of spells, abilities magic items and tricks. Invisible tetris. Nightmare difficulty. Platonic killer dungeon style. Goddamn I am excited.

The premise of Tomb of Horrors is a brilliant bit of meta-fiction. Just as the actual module is meant to be a test for only the most skillfull players, the tomb proper is a gauntlet, a true trap meant to attract only the greatest of adventurers and whittle them down until only the most formidable remain. These are to be food so the Demi-Lich can continue to exist in his beyond deathless state. The Demi Lich is itself transcendent, an antagonist beyond anything in the MM.

There’s no old fucking man in a tavern begging you to help out his dog which is lost in the Tomb of Horrors. Its well hidden, remote. It keeps its distance. Scraps of lore culled from sages, framents from Legend Lore spells. Most people tend to agree, its going to have your fucking characters for breakfast. Have you designated an heir for your keep? Then its time to take that 12th level fighter out of retirement for one last glorious hurrah. You can have him enjoy old age, but there will always be some lingering memory that when ultimate challenge stared in his face, he flinched like an old woman. You will always wonder ‘was he tough enough?’

This almost coy reluctance is what adds to TOH’s menace. Today’s dungeon designers would probably make it a giant fire-belching skull fortress covered with impaled 20th level Paladins on it [3]. There’s no such pretense with Gygax. A remote island in the Vast Swamp, a Hill covered with brambles. Stones on the top in the form of a skull. No random encounters. The last safe moment of this adventure. Begin. Rooms look innucuous. Even in those with seeming hazards the danger always comes from some unexpected corner. The lethality of Tomb of Horrors lies not in its use of save vs death but in its utter refusal to telegraph its attacks clearly. Danger is always concealed, or comes from an oblique angle.

Gygax was always very meticulous in how he set up his modules and this one is no exception. From the first second he telegraphs that Tomb of Horrors is not going to be an exciting romp through Dragon canyon, involving Sword fights and Sorcery. Instead a gruelling ordeal of roadblocks awaits, each one either deadly or debilitating, each obstacle requiring solution before the next one may be attempted. You need patience, contemplation, relentless energy, a calloused soul, inured to dissapointment[4]. You need to sustain that for multiple sessions, with mere trinkles of treasure to keep you going. A Dark Souls mindset. A Darkest Dungeon Mindset.

The first design element that comes to mind is one that is credibly laid at the feet of many dungeons afterward by the tenfootpole.org school; This dungeon limits player abilities (though nowhere near as much as is often stated). You will find adamantium doors proof against any sorcery, sorcerous bolts proof against any enchantment, effects that cannot be magicked around but must be tackled head on. The Tomb will have its way. As a general dungeon design principle? Rigid and desincentivizing of creative problem solving. As an ultimate challenge for high level characters that tests their skills in the CORE of DnD? Perfectly acceptable and probably necessary. High level DnD is vastly different from low level DnD. Standard solutions exist and are available for most mundane problems. Knock. Find Traps. Detect Magic. Tomb of Horrors tests you by stripping you of some of those advantages and forcing you to rely on your wits. If there is a method to ToH it is that you need to change how you approach obstacles because it always thinks two steps ahead. The big fuck you, Ethereal Travel, is tackled by having you attract Demons. Its a hindrance that prevents you from curbstomping the entire dungeon but you can still use it effectively, its drawbacks must simply be taken into account.

In short, while Bryce’s claims that this element ruined a generation of GM’s with terribly designed modules and turned them into pedophiles are understandable and entirely accurate, this blame should not be placed at the feet of Tomb of Horrors itself, which contains a set of tools for an entirely different situation then most modules, but the folly of man, who misunderstands and misinterprets the greatness that is bequeathed upon it.

There’s an unconventional mechanic to some of Tombs traps that I am eager to actually implement. Anytime there is a reliance on reaction time (e.g. you hear a click and feel the ground rumbling) instead of a saving throw the GM is merely to count and check when the players respond, then take their movement speed and calculate if they can avoid the hazard. This mechanism keeps players on their toes and alert and is an excellent counterpoint to the more obvious hazards, which are generally circumvented more methodically with careful experimentation.

The deadliness of Tomb of Horrors is legendary but a careful reading shows much of the beginning lethality can be circumvented with careful preparation and the abilities of high level spellcasters. A 10th level cleric’s Slow Poison spell can keep characters alive for 10 hours, enough time to rest and pray for a Neutralize poison spell. Find Traps is 2nd level. Augury is 2nd level. Contact Outer Plane is a 5th level wizard spell. The insane potential of high level characters unfolds before one as some dreadful, lovecraftian butterfly and only a deep understanding of the fundamentals of DnD allows for the design of a dungeon that walks the narrow tightrope between countering gamebreaking powers and utter arbitrary shitfuckery. Beyond an unlucky set of rolls as you encounter the first pit trap, there is no excuse to die in the first 4 rooms. Tomb of Horrors is merciless but it is seldom unfair or arbitrary.

Quoth Gygax ” Accounts relate that it is quite unlikely that any adventurers will ever find the chamber where the demi-lich Acererak lingers, for the passages and rooms of the
Tomb are fraught with terrible traps, poison gases, and magical protections.”

The first part of the dungeon is also the most confounding in terms of possibilities. You are bombarded with sensory impressions of hieroglyphics, a process not exactly aided by thick chunky blocks of text that Gygax favored that need to be digested in advance and memorized, a fatal flaw in other modules, barely a hindrance in this one as players are unlikely to advance more then one room every hour or so if lucky or skillful. This section lures you in by confronting you with a glittering path, which ancestral memory would dictate is safe whereas straying from it is death. FALSE. There are weird, hard to find secret hinges that lead to…pit trap! Careful observation unveils a vaguely mocking riddle full of clues, what better way to get players pumped for the dangers ahead?

The opening of Tomb of Horrors confronts you with myriad ways to go but nearly all of them dead ends or traps. Even here Tomb is still pulling its punches, with some traps landing you in a situation that is not immediately fatal, merely debilitating, at times even deigning to offer cryptic riddles with the possibility of minor advantage later on. There is the possibility of deaths, certainly, but a TPK is unlikely, as the lack of random encounters means characters can almost always retreat. False doors or punishing hallways with magic dart traps are meant only to slow down, and are unlikely to kill high level characters, though perhaps an incautious wizard or two will be culled. What is really needed to complete the tomb at this point are retainers, preferably charmed ones.

The next major nexus, the Hall of the Spheres, is still not Tomb of Horror at its full power. Effective use is made of crawlways, something I wish to see more often in DnD. Nothing quite evokes childhood fantasies of exploring buried places like claustrophobic tunnels, sometimes with hidden doors in places where you’d least expect them. The first red herrings are thrown at the players, confounding mysteries that seem of significance but are merely there to waste time or lure people to their deaths. The challenge level ramps up from thereon out. By now you the brain should be acclimatized to the new normal, which is that where in normal game design hints are meant to advance the game, here they are generally traps meant to kill you. This is what separates ToH from a  difficult but otherwise normal dungeon. ToH deliberately sets out to trick you, and uses your ingrained dungeoneering instincts against you. You get a little time to adjust to this change before Tomb ramps up its difficulty from high to lethal.

There is one fantastically placed secret door that must be found in order to continue and it is literally in the last place you’d look. I am in awe of it. Its great. Theres a series of three doors, with pit traps immediately behind them. You MIGHT at this point, still fall for one, probably not the second and there’s no way you will fall for the third. THAT’S WHERE THE SECRET DOOR IS. IT’S IN THE TRAP. BULLSHIT you say! LITERALLY THE LAST PLACE YOU’D LOOK. But…there’s another secret door in a trap before that (granted it’s hidden) AND it’s mentioned in the bullshit riddle. You have Contact Outer Plane to narrow the search damnit.

At around room 16 the game confronts you with the first honest to god Potential TPK since the opening and its not THAT bad, more menacing then utterly lethal. A nice countdown with an added possibility for some magical trickery and it’s all good. You ask yourself…is Tomb slowing down? Then another favorite of Tomb of Horrors that would become a staple of 16-bit video games…the fakeout!

There are no less then Two, possibly Three Fake Acereraks in Tomb of Horrors (one of them a normal corpse). The fakery of each one is telegraphed, accounted for, obvious in retrospect, but its yet another example of brilliant design. In the first case, it prompts a confrontation (somewhat underwhelming), followed by a precipitous escape and elation…followed by realization. It functions as a benchmark, punctuating the grind. The second time it serves as an anti-climax…spurring on a new expedition. Throughout the Tomb, the possible confrontation with Acererak should serve as a looming threat on the horizon.

Now might as well be the time to discuss the way you advance in Tomb of Horrors, which is almost exclusively by secret doors. Secret doors will become your new best friend, your closest confidante, your lover even. You will get to know them better then you know yourself. In the hands of a bumbling oaf like Raggi you get the second half of Grinding Gear, a monotonous slog as characters brainlessly stumble about and headbutt the walls until they roll a 1 or run out of food. I am A-goddamn-SHAMED I ever compared that piece of shit to this FUCKING MASTERPIECE. There are TWO secret door in this entire 33 room murder factory that has to be brute forced when all comes down to it. EVERY other door is located near a dead end, has some alternate means of detection, is telegraphed or can otherwise be discovered by investigation. The ONE secret door is located about 2/3rds of the way and can be found relatively quickly with a systematic search. The other one leads to Acererak but has a noticeable feature. You do not even necessarily need to use B1 style gridmapping to find hidden areas though it could conceivably be useful.

At around 2/3rds ToH takes off the gloves and reaches full, unadulterated Toh level. The traps that kill your players no longer resemble anything recognisable and have qualities that are all but impossible to anticipate. A bouncing room with tapestries that are actually polymorphed constructions of Slime and Brown Mould. A mythril door that if scratched, can flood the entire dungeon with blood. The FUCKING throne CROWN TRAP. GENIUS. There is barely marked corridor trap that can very easily result in a TPK. I said CAN because the chance that it actually triggers is not 100%. It is at this point that all bets are truly off. Nothing can be trusted except the PCs precautions, paranoia and their understanding of how Tomb “thinks.”

The traps increase in intensity until the penultimate trap has the potential to lock the entire Tomb in a failure state from which there is virtually no recovery…but as per usual you get multiple recovery attempts before that happens. Effects are as varied as everything else, some traps are merely obstacles, harmless as long as they are not directly tampered with, others are meant to wear you down and are almost unavoidable but never lethal, yet still others are like landmines, unobtrustive and deadly, or vast and ponderous. A veritable menagerie of deadly and brilliant shitfuckery whose nature becomes increasingly opaque and confounding.

One of my big gripes with putting pit traps in random hallways is that it incentivizes players to waste time by checking every single fucking tile of the game. That’s boring. Tomb of Horrors does this exactly never. All the pit traps in the game, with the exception of those in the entry hall, are placed just shortly after an interactive dungeon element (e.g. a crossroads or a door), shaking everyone awake and giving them time to get back in the game.

The final fight and confrontation with Acererak is among the most lethal in the Tomb and fits seamlessly with the theme of the entire dungeon. Once again, rushing headlong into peril will most likely result in immediate lethality for the players whereas preparation and strategy will bring possible success, and once again, the Tomb uses misdirection to confuse the players into thinking the danger lies in some other place.

The rewards for success are suitably colossal, a titanic hoard suitable for high level characters that should serve as a nice symbolic representation of their true success; beating the Tomb of Horrors without John Wick having to nursemaid you through it.

Tomb is a difficult product to recommend. As a straight one-shot it will likely decimate any potential explorers quickly and mercilessly, and its slow, methodical pacing makes it impossible to complete in a single session. Running it for new players risks destroying their conception of what DnD is supposed to be in ways more damaging then one can articulate. I’m not even sure a normal DnD player would even enjoy this.

But if you have yourself a couple of “thinking module” chaps with hard eyes, steel in their guts and high level characters I say fucking go with it. Make it the goddamn chocolate-and-fudge coated capstone of a long and hard campaign, have everyone set their affairs in order and make their will and run that badboy the way its intended. Risk it all for immortal glory. And as they emerge, basking in evenlight, laden with wealth, the lives of dozens of retainers a fleeting memory, you can pat yourself on the back for training your players to a level of ability reached only by a seldom few.

And for godsake don’t run it as a 5e or a 3e conversion. The plethora of extra carebear powers and the revamped detection skills completely fuck with the way ToH is supposed to operate. If you are going to run this thing run it ah la carte, no sixpack, no infinite respawning character carousel.

To those that dislike or even hate Tomb of Horrors I say that is perfectly fine. It’s by no means the be all and end-all of what high level DnD is about. Hell, I’m not even sure its for me. But I’ll be damned if it is not a shining example of fiendishly clever design, packed to the brim with lethal, unconventional, BRILLIANT dickery that does exactly what it is meant to do, push your players to new heights of skill, force them to get every last erg out of their spells, and spit polish their dungeon-crawling procedures until they fucking shine. It stands in a category all on its own and has not truly been surpassed. Even Return ttToH, while possibly superior in the classic module sense, never quite reaches the level where it forces players to change how they play DnD if they want to beat it.

I’ve seen tougher modules then ToH, but I don’t think I’ve seen modules that are hard like ToH is hard, meticulously crafted and requiring the type of finesse, patience and precision that ToH demands. ToH is an absolute fucking classic and if you ever build up a collection of players that you think have a decent fucking chance to make it through you should absolutely run it. *****

[1] The latter for entirely different reasons that have nothing to do with Tomb of Horrors but I felt I had to include this detail out of journalistic obligation
[2] Paraphrased from Gygax’s Foreword in Return to the Tomb of Horrors by Bruce Cordell
[3] Just kidding, that would be the 90s. I guess Tomb of Annihilation is a pretty good indication of what a 5e ToH looks like.


58 thoughts on “[Adventure] Tomb of Horrors (AD&D); Where mettle falters the butt doth suffer persecution

  1. I like S1 🙂

    “Generational inbreeding would seem to be the obvious explanation, only I know for a fact not every detractor of Tomb of Horrors originates from rpg.net.
    Savage, as the truth oft is.

    “Let me tell you a story. The year is 1975[…]but he just shakes his head, weeping angry tears.”
    This bit got me to actually laugh out loud.

    “Stones on the top in the form of a skull.”
    In as much as S1 gets a lot of deserved credit for its art, the skull-faced hill always looked like some giant derpy jack’o’lantern to me, closer to :downs: or :unsmith: than something intimidating.

    “A Dark Souls mindset. A Darkest Dungeon Mindset.”
    Disagree with comparing to Dark Souls. The Souls games[*] are all too forgiving to instill much risk-management/risk-aversion behavior beyond perhaps huddling behind a shield (which I’d expect most players to quickly realize is inferior to learning to dodge), since you don’t lose anything irreplaceable on death unless you used it up for yourself (Demon’s Souls being a slight exception perhaps, since stones of ephemeral eyes were a lot more of an annoyance to find/farm than later games that dropped humanity-type items like candy, and losing 25%-50% max HP in a single step instead of the gradual decline in Dark Souls 2 was a noteworthy punishment for failure).
    [*]: Including Bloodborne, but excluding Sekiro as I haven’t played it. I refuse to use that idiotic “Soulsborne” moniker except to mock it.

    The comparison to Darkest Dungeon is more fitting, since the characters who die are lost forever (or confined to the color of madness DLC), excepting a rare town event.

    “…this blame should not be placed at the feet of Tomb of Horrors itself, which contains a set of tools for an entirely different situation then most modules, but the folly of man, who misunderstands and misinterprets the greatness that is bequeathed upon it.”
    Agreed. People taking away the wrong lessons should be held responsible for their failings.

    “Tomb of Horrors is merciless but it is seldom unfair or arbitrary.”
    Mostly agree, but I’d say that the riddle/poem should be more accessible (in that I dislike how the module as written asks for pixelbitching to find it; the obfuscation of its meaning is fine, but its existence is vital information).

    “…thick chunky blocks of text that Gygax favored […] a fatal flaw in other modules, barely a hindrance in this one…”
    Eh, bad presentation is bad regardless of the module’s pace. Then again, I rewrite pretty much every module into shortform for use at the table and keep the module itself handy in case I need more detail (most recently with getting a hybrid of original and revised Death Frost Doom down to 2 pages of room keys + 1 page of monster stats).

    “You have Contact Outer Plane to narrow the search damnit.”
    As a big fan of utility- and support-based mages, I always loved how S1 mostly gives the finger to those who focus on blasting spells.

    “There are TWO secret door in this entire 33 room murder factory that has to be brute forced when all comes down to it. EVERY other door is located near a dead end, has some alternate means of detection, is telegraphed or can otherwise be discovered by investigation.”
    As someone who prefers descriptive searching to roll-based searching, I’d be inclined to say even 2 is 2 too many, if S1 hadn’t been meant for level 10+ PCs who should have ample ways of getting around mundane searching.

    “The final fight and confrontation with Acererak is among the most lethal in the Tomb and fits seamlessly with the theme of the entire dungeon. Once again, rushing headlong into peril will most likely result in immediate lethality for the players whereas preparation and strategy will bring possible success…”
    That, or an enabling GM. I can’t recall where I first heard this nor if it was fact or conjecture, but there is at least a rumor that Acererak’s hodge-podge of idiosyncratic weaknesses were developed by Gygax starting out with nothing and then going along with any clever ideas his players came up with that sounded plausible. The common anecdote of Gygax ruling in favor of the players who put the crown on Acererak’s head and touched it with the bad end of the scepter during a con adds circumstantial evidence to support that rumor.

    “Tomb is a difficult product to recommend […] I’m not even sure a normal DnD player would even enjoy this.”
    This is probably the biggest flaw with S1. It’s great for what it sets out to do, but it’s a niche application. It’s also not helped by the length making it difficult to use outside of a campaign while the escalating deadliness can turn it into a dud ending for long-running PCs. Thus, while S1 as written is superior to Raggi’s attempts at mimicry via Grinding Gear or Death Frost Doom, those are likely far more usable with most groups.

    FYI, Footnote [4] is missing.

    Liked by 1 person

      1. No, I was just pointing it out since I hadn’t noticed a missing footnote in previous reviews. If that was the intention, those, it’s rather cute 🙂

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    1. That bit about Gygax coming up with a demi-lich’s weaknesses on the fly is something I had never heard before, and it absolutely makes sense. Out of everything in this adventure, I’ve always felt like the fight with the demi-lich is the most arbitrary and punishing, and least satisfying, element of the adventure.

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    2. [Souls/Dungeon comparison]

      You are disagreeing from an incompatible level of abstraction. Both are games where the outcome of failure is expected, and where the trial and error plays a significant part in completing the game. You don’t lose anything irretrievable in either souls or DD but you can lose vast quantities of XP or high level characters or trinkets or whathaveyou. The point is that you need to harden your soul to disappointment and failure and need to be willing to figure things out by trial and error in a way that normal modules do not often require.

      [That fucking poem]

      As written I’d say its one directed search away from discovery and it gets a prefix that MIGHT provoke further investigation. Given the number of confounding objects in Room 4, I think its placement is about fair.

      [That fucking search]

      It’s yet another challenge in a range of challenges, like a series of IQ tests. You are confronted by a dead end, what do you do? In this case the solution is ‘methodically search the corridor,’ a legitimate challenge in an adventure like this.

      [Acererak]

      It’s probably the most unforgiving of the bunch, where each try generally causes a death (as written the Demi-Lich doesn’t engage if you don’t so its not a combat which would be worse). The crown anecdote seemed to me more as though the players came up with something he had not considered before, suggesting that he would have had some sort of plan before he went in to it. I’m not sure I buy Gygax having no plan for the weaknesses of his final boss in such an otherwise meticulously constructed dungeon.

      You type a lot Addler, but the core of your contributions are mostly solid. My feedback is to work on your post length and see if certain parts cannot be compressed or omitted without losing the essence of what you are trying to convey.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. [Souls/Dungeon comparison]

        Failure is expected and trial/error is a learning process is every game of non-insignificant difficulty. Nobody beat Mario Bros on their first try, and save points (or state passwords before them) are pretty ubiquitous outside of niche genres like fighting games and roguelikes, both of which are clearly designed for massive investments of time before you become competent, let alone good. As well compare S1 to chess, if you’re painting with such broad strokes.

        I’d also disagree with Souls games being focused on disappointment and failure in general. The whole “this game is HARD”/”prepare to die” nonsense is marketing BS. It’s easy to break the difficulty in every single one with such arcane tactics as running by enemies or abusing AI leashing, and FROM patched down the difficulty multiple times to appease whiners (DkS1 roughly doubled soul drop quantities and added soul drops to the respawning skeletons, DkS2 shrine of amana wizards had their spell tracking nerfed, etc.). That reputation comes from brats used to instant gratification being frustrated by not getting it and whining on the Internet instead of employing a modicum of pattern recognition and self-review.

        [That fucking poem]

        Text from module: “If the pattern of the floor has been carefully observed and studied from the entrance to this point, the individual with such perseverance will be rewarded by suddenly understanding that a message is contained in barely noticeable runes in the mosaic floor.”
        Bearing in mind following said pattern leads through multiple nasty pit traps and the statement says there’s no understanding gained until the whole pattern has been studied, the only saving grace is that the “barely noticeable runes” might allow hinting there’s something be to gained by checking the whole thing (though I imagine most GMs at the time doing a 1-in-6 or similar check and reporting nothing noticed on failure). Personally, I prefer to keep the red tile path but move the poem to the mosaic around the green devil face. YMMV, but after the false entrances and the tile path leading them into traps, most players won’t expect any genuine hints provided by the tomb’s maker.

        [Acererak]

        For clarity, the crown anecdote: Someone was running S1 at a con (can’t recall which but it was some time after the original tournament). When the players put the crown on Acererak and touched it with the scepter, the GM put the game on hold, explained the situation to Gygax, and asked what to do. Gygax pondered for a moment, then said it should work.

        Given that the module is explicit that “The demi-lich’s skull can be harmed only as follows”, and that method wasn’t one of the 8 points that followed, Gygax was at least open to adding weaknesses he hadn’t considered in reaction to creative thinking. I’m not saying that proves the rumor about Acererak’s weaknesses, just that it is a factual event which suggests there could be some truth to that rumor.

        [Post length]

        Honestly, I don’t really care if people TL;DR my comments. I’d love to say “something worth saying is worth saying well” or similar pith, but really, my comments are mostly stream-of-consciousness affairs with minimal editing because I don’t take a rigorous approach to talking about make-believe games on the Internet beyond simple standards like drawing distinction between facts, interpretations, and conjectures and providing some context/evidence for claims. I’m used to talking into voids both IRL and online, so I won’t be hurt if something I say goes without response; having said it is enough for me.

        That said, I do appreciate the feedback, so I did a pass over this post and trimmed some extraneous bits.

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      2. [Souls]

        You are employing kettle logic in defense of your position. You are simultaneously arguing that every significantly difficult game has as its core trial-and-error gameplay and could be used as a stand-in in this comparison at this level of abstraction, a statement I do not necessarily disagree with, then follow this up with an impassioned plea that Souls does not belong to this category anyway or does not strongly stand-out.

        Your first point is theoretically accurate, I could have used Contra: Hard Corps or Ikaruga as examples but the examples I provided are a good bet in that they happen to be familiar to my regular crowd, are reasonably popular among fans of fantasy and gaming alike, are at least intuitively compatible and are popularly considered difficult or punishing.

        Your second point is not accurate. The difficulty can be broken by running past adversaries and abusing glitches in the AI, what of that? Most games, even very difficult games, can be speedrun or broken. In your very sentence you use the word abuse, pointing out this is an exploit.
        In the milieu it came out it was both A) significantly more difficult then the usual mainstream titles (contemporary comparison, not absolute) and B) FROM patching its difficulty because of torrential outpourings of whiny brats pretty much cements that point.

        I would also observe that Dark Souls has multiple traps, encounters and boss-battles that are essentially impossible to anticipate or complete on the first try. The entire game or series is built around the idea of repeated trial- and -error gameplay, and multiple systems are employed to add extra depth or variation to this loop of repeated fatality, from humanity to having to recover your lost experience points. Added to this are dead ends, generally obtuse secrets, multiple directions etc. etc.

        [Poem]

        GM: “Well that was Jerry. Much as you prod and poke, you find no further pit traps.”
        Pc:”I carefully inspect the mosaic to see if I notice anything.”
        GM: “How much are you going to inspect?”
        PC: “The Entire path?”
        GM: “OK. You suddenly get this message:….”

        I’ll agree its a bit of a long shot but at the same time I think if it was made more obvious PCs would trust it less, not more. There’s at least one other riddle, subtle and well-concealed, that is truthful.

        [Acererak]

        I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. I’m not convinced the possibility of additional vulnerabilities not covered in the text is circumstantial evidence for Acererak’s weaknesses starting out as undefined. I’m not an expert on Gygax trivia, I just figure its unlikely he’d start out with a blank slate for weaknesses after taking such meticulous care with the rest of the dungeon.

        [TLDR]

        Thank you for your consideration. For the record I do not generally TLDR comments unless they prove to be a complete waste of time [which has been virtually never on this blog], but I plow through so much writing every week that I can’t help but notice bumps and pits in the information density as it enters my brain. This hobby has turned me into a human white noise detector.

        I don’t think I’d have much readers if I didn’t at least consider feedback, but probably more importantly, if I don’t care what people think of an idea I have no reason to utter it. Figuring out ways to improve my grammar, convey ideas more clearly and succinctly and make my blog more navigable has helped me write better.

        Since we in the process of a lengthy discussion, I tried to post on your blog and castigate you for your heresies vis a vis Tolkien but I had to sign in or some shit? Are you open to doing it here? Is there anything I have to read before I make my initial statement and brand you Malificarum?

        Like

      3. [Souls]

        Souls games do require some thought but not to a substantial degree beyond what I’d call average (i.e. “non-insignificant difficulty”, which is different from “significantly difficult”). Contra games and hardcore shmups tend to be difficult (though it’s interesting that Hard Corps Uprising had both a traditional arcade-style mode and an upgrade-based mode, but I digress).

        My second point restated: Souls games just take a reasonable degree of patience and observation, and they’d be failures if dealing with disappointment and failure were actual focal points (Darkest Dungeon was a good example for this). “Running past enemies” is simply “this thing is dangerous to fight and doesn’t reward me adequately, therefore let me not fight it”, no regard for optimizing net effective-DPS or routing as in speedrunning. I’ll concede that AI leashing is more advanced, but using a shield is an easy, obvious, and expected way of neutering most challenges (note that DkS1 even grants a shield to every starting class, unlike DeS), and looking out for traps like pressure plates or mimic chests is similarly simple (I can link to a blind LP of someone attacking the Sen’s mimic before even knowing mimics were a thing from seeing an online ghost attack a chest surrounded by bloodstains).

        Admittedly, I’m not familiar with mainstream titles for comparing difficulty, but on the note about patching, what I meant is that FROM’s history of toning down the difficulty shows that they don’t actually want the games to be hard, they just want the illusion of difficulty. Contrast that to Red Hook increasing the difficulty of Darkest Dungeon multiple times (enemy corpses, adding stress damage for drawing out fights, hag and shambler reinforcing why lepers suck, etc.), Team Ninja expanding the endgame for Nioh, or Id basically standing their ground with Doom 2016 aside from fixing bugs.

        Genuine question: can you provide examples of what you considered essentially impossible to complete on the first try in Dark Souls? I recall only 2 or 3 instances of that in DkS1 (ghosts in New Londo Ruins, curse basilisks, and arguably the archer bridge in Anor Londo). I had maybe 1 or 2 deaths per area aside from that, but it never felt like I had to fail to learn unless I handicapped myself consciously. Contrast with Darkest Dungeon (where most enemies and all bosses have unique gimmicks, many of which have to be anticipated to counter properly) or Nioh (where stamina loss and backstabs are far more punishing, pushing ambush situations into trial-and-error gameplay).

        Your last sentence is what I feel is the actual focus of Dark Souls: exploration and mapping.

        [Poem]

        YMMV. My experience is that treating it as open mockery from Acererak works well, but I can’t even remember the last time I ran S1. Maybe I should run it as a Halloween special.

        [Acererak]

        I agree that Gygax likely started with some ideas for dispatching Acererak. My intent was pointing out that (a) the highly idiosyncratic list (completely different from any other monster in a Gygax publication, to the best of my knowledge) suggests additional weaknesses added from play experience and (b) the module’s “only 8 weaknesses” not being a strict rule per the crown anecdote is circumstantial evidence for the rumor.

        [TLDR]

        I do put in that effort for work. For hobby stuff, I tend to pour out my enthusiasm, rough edges and all, but I’m trying to be more concise since you asked 🙂

        [Tolkien]

        Sorry, I know disqus is a shit interface, but it’s the simplest I can include in wix. You should be able to sign in with a facebook/twitter/google account if you’ve got one, but you’re welcome to just have that discussion here. My only qualifier is pointing out that I haven’t read Hobbit/LOTR books in 15-20 years, so I won’t be able to go into specific details.

        Like

      4. [Souls]

        Whew its been a while since my current PC is essentially a brick (that I am in the process of replacing since its quarantine). Dark Souls came out on the PS3 in an era when outside of a few semi-niche titles like Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, Ninja Gaiden or Tenchu, most titles were comparatively hand-holdery or had a much lower barrier of entry. Think of titles like the Arkham series, Assassins Creed, CoD, GTA etc. etc. mostly good games but with much less depth.

        Of the top of my head, the path into the graveyard after you complete the Asylum confronts you with re-animating skeletons that are far beyond your level of ability, the Dragon’s attack after the Taurus demon comes out of virtually nowhere and a winding stairway in the Undead Burg brings you up against a Black Knight that has unknown attack patterns, massive damage and punishing amounts of hit points.

        A seasoned player can probably breeze through that and who knows, maybe a good player can evade all that shit. The average player? I don’t think so.

        [Tolkien]

        Of course. I think very highly of Tolkien and since I need but point out his vast influence on fantasy as a whole and the almost universal admiration he has garnered since the 70s I think it would be helpful if you start by laying out what your opinion of him is. Personal taste needs no accounting, but I can’t fathom why anyone would think his amazingly detailed, beautiful epic, an archtypically christian saga poured in the mould of pagan legend overrated and unreadable. I’d ask you to A) put forth a superior author and B) explain as best you can why you feel Tolkien is a failure as an author.

        Like

      5. [Souls]

        DkS1 was one of the few games I preordered (PS3 version), so I’m well aware of when it came out. I could argue about difficulty relative to what came before or around then, but of the mainstream titles you listed, I played only the first AssCreed (which should say what I thought of it). It’s possible that my tastes in video games skews my sense of “normal” difficulty, since DMC, Bayonetta, and Ninja Gaiden Sigma are what I’d consider a fun challenge. I’d say those examples all have either sufficient chances to disengage and retreat (skellies and BK) or telegraphing (prominent scorch marks on the drake bridge), but I’ll accept that my experiences might not be representative.

        [Tolkien]

        I’ll take my time doing a write-up of my thoughts re:Tolkien, trying to post before Monday.

        Liked by 1 person

      6. I break my thoughts on Tolkien’s writing into two categories by scale: mythic and personal.

        On the mythic side, I have no complaints. I enjoyed The Silmarillion (2013 publishing by HarperCollins and edited by Christopher Tolkien). Rich imagery, brilliant arcs, deeply developed pseudo-history, it’s all great. I could quibble over some areas of focus, but they’d be minor complaints. Ungoliant was a huge-ass spider who was cloaked in unlight. What does that mean? Exactly what it says and whatever you imagine based on that. Beautiful.

        Where I draw issue with Tolkien is with his attempts to deal with people’s daily lives. Elrond wasn’t simply the terribly beautiful grand elf chief in Rivendell, he was half a page or more of talking about the stitching of his clothes before contriving ways to launch into mountains of exposition about his history. I get that him being a half-elf is a Big Deal(TM) in the mythic side of things, but it’s mostly noise in the personal. Same for Galadriel, Balin, Boromir, etc.

        I recall reading paragraphs about a simple gold ring with some engravings on the inside or variations on “hey, Joe, tally ho / Tom Bombadil-o”. These might’ve been acceptable the first time (though I tend to hate songs in prose, BID), but the repeats were only invitations to skip a page or two.

        Sauron, dread Necromancer in whose shadow the world trembles, could’ve been replaced by an inanimate object with no effect. I don’t care that Sauron kicked Elrond’s ass until Isildur saved him just before falling under the Ring’s influence centuries ago when I’m reading about what’s happening now. The fact that the movies took the liberty of representing the eye of Sauron just to depict a main antagonist speaks volumes for how little he does. That fit thematically with echoing Morgoth’s diminishing over time, but it made Sauron lack any impact in my mind.

        For authors who I think did better, it’d be unfair to pick Poe, Lovecraft, etc. since their mediums enforced different economy. I’ll point to Frank Herbert. Viewed at a distance, the Dune series is not as good as LOTR (Dune and Dune Messiah could compete, the rest fall off), but in reading the actual text they wrote, Herbert was far superior at giving the context to understand and care about what’s happening without burying me in worldbuilding. What exactly went on between Houses Atreides and Harkonnen before Dune? Enough to hate each other, now get on with things. I liked reading all of them up to and including Heretics of Dune.

        If you’d insist on sticking with fantasy authors, I’d say Garth Nix’s Abhorsen trilogy is of competitive quality in story and superior in writing. I recall liking Fred Saberhagen’s Swords series more, though I think that’s a mix of early exposure and nostalgia, and I suspect it wasn’t actually that good.

        I don’t deny Tolkien’s influence on fantasy. Even with my complaints, I found The Hobbit interesting enough to read Fellowship, though I only strove on further because of assurances they get better and sunken cost fallacy. Were I to read LOTR again now, I might come away with different feelings, since I was able to tolerate Robert Jordan’s and Brandon Sanderson’s even worse exposition enough to think Wheel of Time was enjoyable.

        Tolkien brought a lot to the genre. Within the context of LOTR, though, I think he didn’t bring anything to writing. Much like with S1, future imitators (Jordan, Sanderson, GRR Martin, etc.) emphasize the worst parts because they’re the easiest to reproduce. That might heighten my dislike for LOTR, but I think the problems were there.

        TLDR: Tolkien good at worldbuilding, plotting, bad at non-mythic exposition. hashtagDunesbeforeduds 🙃

        Liked by 1 person

      7. Ash, I think your take on Souls is hair-splitting, but I feel very similarly about Tolkien. More than world-building, he was great at myth-building. But he didn’t do a very good job in the close-ups. He was updating epic storytelling a tiny bit but this is not a modern reboot and thus lacks a certain 20th century psychological intimacy. When I put it that way, I’m sure that Prince considers this to be a feature and not a bug, casting his fies on all things modern.

        Liked by 1 person

      8. I obviously thought there was enough to argue over the Souls reference to do so, but it’s played out and unlikely to go anywhere at this point 🙂

        Good to here my Tolkinklings weren’t entirely madness. I don’t know if it’s really a matter of modernity, as most of my favorite authors predate his works, but we’ll see the severity of my sins when Prince replies.

        Like

      9. Alright. I accept your division.

        [Mythic]

        I’m glad that in that we are at least of one mind. I find the Silmarillion an absolutely breathtaking piece of fantasy whose scope and prose I have not seen equaled in this or likely the next century. I took exceptional enjoyment from the tale of the Fall of Numenor as well as the lay of Beren and Luthien. Favourite moment remains the epic smackdown between Morgoth and Fingolfin.

        [Daily Lives]

        I would counter that in his dealings with daily men and the stirrings of their souls he is more then generous in his portrayal of the central protagonist Frodo, his friendship with Sam and his struggles with bearing the burden of the Ring. What sets Lord of the Rings apart from its mythic protagonists is the humble nature of its protagonist, something that is noticeable absent from its legion of copy-cats. Think also of the lengthy establishment of Frodo’s idyllic life before he must needs must travel away from it and take up arms against evil, making him a true hero!

        [Lengthy Prose]

        I find your complaints ring somewhat true for The Fellowship of the Ring, which is admittedly very slow, especially at the beginning, and reaches all but a grinding halt when they reach Tom Bombadil(-o), the Mr. Popo of Lotr, but the same can not be said of Two Towers and the Return of the King, which are very well paced and generally have momentous events take place over the course of single chapters.

        I would argue that Tolkien is much less guilty of the Moorcockian sin of focusing on what people are wearing and the detail, in his case, gives much needed context that is required to sustain the sensation of a lived-in and breathing world, with a rich history, that is sustained throughout the text. I would argue he does this with precision, that characters are given spotlight in proportion to their importance, and that books 2 and 3 and the second half of book 1 are very tense and well paced. Who can argue their sphincter did not tighten in the Mines of Moria?

        [Sauron]

        While I think a Miltonian Sauron in the Flesh MIGHT have worked (as the short glimpse of Morgoth in The Chilren of Hûrin), I think keeping Sauron in the background was probably the right move. He doesn’t need to act in view of the reader because he is the omnipresent evil that drives the deeds of nearly all the foes our heroes encounter. I would argue Sauron doesn’t need to appear and have a lightsaber fight with Legolas so Frodo can throw the ring into the volcano for the same reason that Azatoth doesn’t need to appear and have a Tommy-gun shoot-out with Randolph Carter. Sauron is the personification of evil in Middle Earth, a fantasy Satan, whose evil works and slaves form an inexorably increasing threat for our heroes.

        [Dune]

        Dune is consistently in my top 3 best Sf books ever written, jockeying for position with the Hyperion Cantos and a interchanging third contender (currently it’s The Rediscovery of Man by Cordwainer Smith) so I would have no problem matching Dune against any one of the Lotr trilogy. Messiah is an essential conclusion to the first piece and God Emperor of Dune is possibly better but I would argue Children of Dune is guilty of the same sins you accuse Lord of the Rings and Heretics is probably one of the worst ones (though by no means bad).

        I find myself agreeing with your assessment that Herbert was more parsimonious in the detail he offered, which where so much was implied rather then stated outright, though I would often Nerd out about little tidbits of lore or prose (“At their height the swordmanship of the Sardaukar was equal to that of a Ginaz Swordmaster of the 10th circle.’ ‘He has the laughing eyes!’ ‘The Spice must flow’ etc. etc.).

        Had you chosen a lesser work we would have more ground for contention. I unfortunately cannot comment on Garth Nix being superior since I have not read him, though I find myself vaguely incredulous.

        [Sanderson + Wheel of Time]

        OOF. I never read Lotr until 2 years ago. I read two of Sanderson’s books after picking up a boxed set for 5 bucks. Mistborn? Trash. I was reading Animu Twilight fanfic vaguely said to the tune of Lotr. Insulting. Wheel I still have a few books of but I never got past one and thats unlikely to change in the near future. There’s so much incredible stuff out there and Wheel always struck me as okay derivative shlock, like listening to a fucking cover band.

        [Tolkien Prose]

        But who can forget, such beauty and such potency:

        “War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”

        “Upon it sat a shape, black-mantled, huge and threatening. A crown of steel he bore, but between rim and robe naught was there to see, save only a deadly gleam of eyes: the Lord of the Nazgûl. To the air he had returned, summoning his steed ere the darkness failed, and now he was come again, bringing ruin, turning hope to despair, and victory to death. A great black mace he wielded.”

        Even Tolkien’s exposition is great. It is only in the hands of lesser men that it becomes a tedious slog. It is a testament of Tolkien’s mastery of language that even his exposition is captivating:

        “The valley of Minas Morgul passed into evil very long ago, and it was a menace and a dread while the banished Enemy dwelt yet far away, and Ithilien was still for the most part in our keeping. As you know, that city was once a strong place, proud and fair, Minas Ithil, the twin sister to our own city. But it was taken by fell men whom the Enemy in his first strength had been dominated, and who wandered homeless and masterless after his fall. It is said that their lords were men of Númenor who had fallen into dark wickedness; to them the Enemy had given rings of power, and he had devoured them: living ghosts they were become, terrible and evil. After his going they took Minas Ithil and dwelt there, and they filled it, and all the valley about, with decay: it seemed empty and it was not so, for a shapeless fear lived within the ruined walls. Nine Lords there were, and after the return of their Master, which they aided and prepared in secret, they grew strong again. Then the Nine Riders issued forth from the gates of horror, and we could not withstand them. Do not approach their citadel. You will be espied. It is a place of sleepless malice, full of lidless eyes. Do not go that way!”

        I would urge you to give it another try if you ever get to it. It’s really quite good. Elric doesn’t hold up nearly so well if you read it again as an adult, but LOTR I’ll vouch for.

        Liked by 1 person

      10. [Daily Lives]

        I liked that Bilbo and later Frodo’n’friends were regular people. Perhaps it’s the D&D fan in me, but I prefer one earning being chosen over an ordained chosen one.

        I’ll take your word for it on the establishment of Frodo’s idyllic life; my memories of Fellowship’s opening go “Bilbo’s turning eleventy-one!”>”Gandalf shows up”>”Gandalf pushes Bilbo to pass the burden to Frodo”>”…and they’re off!”

        [Lengthy Prose]

        I’ll confess ignorance on “Mr. Popo”, unless you mean Kami’s aide from Dragon Ball (in which case I’m missing the analogy). Of Two Towers, I recall hating the pacing of everything with ents. Was there a smarmy note of them being hasty, too? I might be mixing that up with Wheel of Time, but whichever author did that pissed me off (“haha, I know this part is boring, but just think of how much worse it’d be if the characters were typical ents/ogier!” 🙄). My memory’s too fuzzy to comment on pacing in Return.

        I might appreciate the spotlighting of various characters more now that I know about the greater context from the Silmarillion, but I definitely remember stretches threatening to put me to sleep. In fairness, I don’t remember that happening during the Mines, the battle of Helm’s Deep, the seige of Gondor’s capital, the infiltration of Mordor, etc., but having that effect at all is never a good thing.

        [Sauron]

        Sauron staying out of direct action is fine in itself, contrasting the active evils of Saruman. I had no problems with Morgoth spending much of the Silmarillion out of sight because he still does things (e.g. creating orcs or stoking resentment and jealousy in the hearts of elves/dwarves/men). Sauron felt like he just sits there and gets credit because of scapegoat rationalizations. The comparison to Satan is apt, but I found it made him lack credibility as a threat.

        [Dune]

        The story quality of the Dune series certainly falls off after Messiah, but the prose quality remains strong until Chapterhouse. Herbert was incredible at the same thing that I swoon over from Lovecraft: striking a wonderful sweet spot of dropping in pieces of lore/worldbuilding/etc. to tantalize and fire the imagination without overwhelming or losing wonder.

        I haven’t read Nix’s other works, but the Abhorsen trilogy is high quality. YA fantasy, though, so expect a different thematic focus from LOTR.

        [Sanderson + Wheel of Time]

        Of Sanderson’s own works, I’ve read the Mistborn trilogy, Elantris, and Way of Kings, in order of decreasing quality. Looking at my reviews of those, I was too generous, but I’d say Mistborn at least topped out at slightly above average. I refuse to read more of his works after enduring Way of Kings (a fucking ~1200 page ad for the next book in that series).

        Wheel of Time tried to be ambitious about weaving together multiple mythologies and some actual history around a core Arthurian story. Jordan just wasn’t a good enough author to actually pull it off well, spent way too much time on his pet fetishes, and wasted 4 or 5 novels in a row until the terminal illness diagnosis finally kicked his ass into gear (“gear” in this case being the plodding pace of the first few, so still not great). I don’t regret reading it because the far-view story was good, but find a plot summary online instead of slogging through it.

        [Tolkien Prose]

        The first two were good. The third made my eyes glaze. “As you know” is a red flag phrase to me, and while there is artful language in there, the repetitive wall of “it’s an evil place full of evil people who’re evil” dulls the result.

        [Try Again]

        I’m in the middle of the first Gaunt’s Ghosts omnibus at the moment, but I don’t have anything else pressing to follow it. I’ll see about tracking LOTR down for another go 🙂

        Like

      11. Your position r.e. LOTR is much softer then I had anticipated. I can totally live with this.

        [Fredo]

        I’d hardly call the opening of Lotr breakneck, but I see its use in the story. He takes a long time to establish the lifestyle of hobbits, the relationships, the status of Bilbo, the humble place of Frodo therein, sprinkles it through with some ominous rumblings elsewhere, and THEN Bilbo vanishes, only to have Gandalf turn about and explain to Frodo his quest. It takes a long ass fucking time to get started but its all very comfy and it establishes what the good uns are fighting for.

        [Mr. Popo]

        I mean DBZ’s mr. Popo. Mr. Popo was essentially ineffectual for most of the animu but I recall his power level was sufficient to block and dodge a few kicks by one of the main SS characters near the end of Dragon Ball Z. Tom Bombadil is god-tier but does nothing and is useless to the plot, so I like comparing him to Mr. Popo.

        [Sanderson]

        I read Elantris a long while back and I thought it was okay but I can’t get over the YA vibe in everything Sanderson writes. The characters seem too cutesy and naive, the anime-esque super-complicated magic system in Mistborn is okay as guilty pleasure and it has that most dreaded of all lazy hack writing tropes THE LOVE TRIANGLE but I think my comparison to Twilight is accurate and I can’t be bothered giving him another shot. I used to read stories to my girlfriend over the phone(we lived in different continents for a long time) so I might use it for that but I want more teeth and more myth in my fantasy breakfast nowadays.

        [Wheel]

        I’ve got a few of them laying about but nowadays I just go for mythical epics when I want the same kick. I finished Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Paradise Lost and the Illiad+Odyssey and I am starting on Tale of the Heike soon. Same vast cast of characters, same scope, stirring prose, vast depth, provides a nice insight into the culture that brought it forth etc. etc. etc. Poetry versions if possible. I’ll take Spencer’s Faery Queene or the Shahnahmeh before I ever touch an R.E. Jordan again.

        [Prose]

        Fair enough. I don’t think comparisons of Lotr with Poe, Lovecraft or Herbert are terrible faux pas so for now the Inquisition is halted until I haphazardly stumble into a Garth Nix.

        [Gaunts Ghosts]

        Dan Abnett is THE low-tier god of entertaining pulp franchise fiction. Definetely check out Eisenhorn if you enjoy Gaunt’s Ghosts. I used to be into 40k novels a lot and I still buy the occasional HH novel but I’ve read enough bolter-porn to sustain me through five lifetimes.

        Liked by 1 person

      12. I come on strong about it because of frustration with people assuming I must love LOTR to be a fantasy fan. I do the same with people assuming I must be into car stuff because I’m a mechanical engineer. It’s like the real life version of being targeted by a bad data mining ad generator.

        [Mr. Popo]

        Ah, the all-powerful bystander. Thanks for explaining 🙂

        [Sanderson]

        I don’t mind YA-ness, but Sanderson’s fetish for game-rules magic always annoyed me. Having definitions of what magic can or can’t do is good (Rowling’s alternative of magic doing whatever the plot needs is a major peeve of mine), but he does it with an exhaustive exactness that feels like he’s writing fanfics for his personal heartbreaker (which may also explain why he doesn’t seem to understand the symbolic element that separates fantasy from speculative fiction). I’ve not read Twilight, but assuming it’s similar in quality to early Anita Blake books, it’s a fair comparison for Mistborn, and “okay as guilty pleasure” is exactly how I feel about it now (I can only assume I’d been reading some terrible shit right before it to come up with a B-tier rating).

        [Wheel]

        Setting your expectations based on 3 Kingdoms or the Odyssey will leave Wheel behind hopelessly. I should add Paradise Lost to my list of things to read.

        [Gaunts Ghosts]

        I loved Ravenor, but Gaunt’s Ghosts hasn’t clicked with me yet. Jumping around in time for dramatic purpose and the contrived Gaunt/Rawne strife annoy me, but Abnett’s writing is good enough to keep me going for now. I bought Xenos already based on how much I liked Ravenor, so I’ve got some Eisenhorn in my future. I like Mitchell’s Ciaphas Cain and Counter’s Grey Knights, but the other WH40K novels I’ve read either rely too much on the franchise to make up for poor quality or hamstring themselves to end up back at the status quo, and lolGWpricing.

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      13. Well, I love jumping into any conversation about Dark Souls, but it seems like you guys covered mostly everything here. I would only add that in my case, getting gud mainly consisted of accepting those “fuck you” traps as part of the fun, not getting pissed after dying and learning to get in the zone – especially with some of the bosses. Learning how to manipulate and deal with them took a LONG time, many deaths and lost souls.

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  2. Definitely one of your funniest reviews in a while. For some reason, referring to intercourse as “plowing” has always been innately hilarious to me. You painted quite the picture of “Gaygax” and the hordes of hardcore 70’s nerds.

    As for what you say about the adventure, it’s almost like you’re saying that it’s not Tomb’s fault for being so hard but players’ faults for being such pussies. Maybe true? But I agree with your implication that this adventure doesn’t seem to have much of a place in today’s landscape. So it’s goodness is more of a matter of historical context and an example of well-applied design principles.

    Question for you: does it have any lessons for today’s gamers? Or is it just an artifact on how things used to be?

    Like

    1. I’d say the adventure is still usable. S1 is hard and punishing, but it’s (mostly) fair about its dangerous, provides hints about how to handle it successfully even without resorting to the crutches of high level magic (as long as the players find the poem, which is why I dislike pixelbitching for it), and its traps (generally) don’t rely on dice roulette if approached carefully. I can nitpick certain details (if you can stand the 3e-isms, this remix from Justin Alexander is a decent guide for addressing the more arbitrary bits, plus the poem in there is more aesthetically pleasing to me), but overall, it’s a good module, provided:

      1. The players are interested in detailed, descriptive play rather than relying on character builds and dice to simulate their competence.
      2. The players are fine with slow, methodical, puzzle-based challenges.
      3a. If used in campaign play, I think it’s best if treated as a temptation independent from any firm objectives other than “some dead old wizard set up this challenge; are you bad enough adventurers to overcome it?”. In my experience with deathtrap dungeons, the deadlier they are, the more you should rely on simple player curiosity to entice them, and always be willing to let them decide to cut their losses and leave.
      3b. If used as a one-shot, be open about what to expect (namely, make sure the players are on board with 1 and 2 before bringing up running S1, and let them know that part of the fun will be in seeing all the weird ways to die in the tomb), and have a plan for keeping players in the game if their characters die early without just starting over (in games with potential for high mortality, I tend to go for a quantum party where the player can pick up another pregen and proceed as if they were there all along until either the pregen pile runs out or there’s less than 30 minutes left to play). Also, unlike 3a, I’d suggest giving them a clear reason to go in and apply time pressure so to forestall any “why are we doing this stupid thing?” arguments.

      As for having lessons for today’s gamers, of course it has some! It’s basically the same as getting better at (good) roguelike games: non-linear thinking, threat assessment, and finding ways to use your player skill to minimize the impact of randomness.

      Like

    2. Thank you for your kind words.

      I think it does indeed have lessons for today’s gamers, maybe more for GMs, in that high level adventures are implied to require not simply superior statts but superior ability and knowledge of the game’s mechanics also. I think that is something that is lacking in modern games, where high level adventures are not necessarily all that much harder then low level ones. In a perfect world, reaching high level requires superior understanding of DnD.

      A second lesson would be the value of planning, precision and strategy in completing an adventure. I can’t for the life of me imagine someone running roughshod over Tomb and making up shit as they go along.

      Somewhere in the OSR, ToH’s message of DnD as a serious game(tm) is alive and well, and I fucking love that.

      Like

      1. Interesting! If I can rephrase your point a little, the expectation of high-level play is that not only are the characters tough, but so are the players, so to speak. This is in line with your Souls analogy (agreeing with you completely on that thread – sorry, Ash); being good at Souls is about leveling up your character and, of course, gitting gud as a player.

        Behind this assumption is an implication: you are playing in a fairly unforgiving way where dead-is-dead. In this situation, probability is very much against reaching levels 10-14 unless the player is extremely careful and clever. That’s quintessential old-school play. I would expect Tomb to be the deadly capstone of a campaign with an already-high body count.

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      2. Dead is dead…unless you can cough up Raise Dead, we are not savages. Otherwise yeah, that’s what I meant when I said its best use is to run a full campaign, have the characters retire AND THEN drag them out for the ultimate challenge.

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  3. “You will get to know them better then you know yourself. In the hands of a bumbling oaf like Raggi you get the second half of Grinding Gear, a monotonous slog as characters brainlessly stumble about and hammer on walls until they roll a 1 or run out of food. I am A-goddamn-SHAMED I ever compared that piece of shit to this FUCKING MASTERPIECE.”

    It took four years but I am glad to see you have come around. Incidentally, I have also run Tomb of Horrors using characters from the roster in the back of the book (we ran this one across two sessions, breaking after the fakeout from room 18.)

    Surprisingly, only two players were slain, both ignobly.

    The first player, to the absolute astonishment of nearly everyone at the table, climbed directly into the green devil statue’s mouth at the end of the first corridor. To this day I still do not quite know how spheres of annihilation were intended to be adjudicated, but given the spirit of the module I felt it appropriate that intersecting one in any capacity functions much like breaking the seal on an environment with a very different pressure… the offending player is sucked in and annihilated completely.

    My players are exceedingly bright and cautious fellows (mostly), and the rest of the dungeon’s traps (e.g. the rooms with the levers, or the throne crown trap) were completely out-witted via their intuition about how a fuck-you dungeon would be constructed. Notably, the players generally did not make use of divination spells of any spell level beyond basic magic detection.

    They utilized the efreet to receive a map of the dungeon, a reasonable request in my estimation, and therefore found it easy to reach the true form of Acerak, which is where our second death occurred when one player felt compelled to reach for the skull of Acerak. As written, touching the skull simply activates it and consumes the soul of the strongest party member, but it felt appropriate to me that the specific offending player be the one to become trapped within the gemstones. Amusingly, despite the hints, my players made no effort to recover the soul of their lost ally and promptly departed.

    Overall, Tomb of Horrors is perhaps the module my players have enjoyed most of any trap-focused module short on either socialization or combat. I recommend it.

    PS: I have posted here at various times under various pseudonyms and I should apologize that I once promised to run Red Prophet Rises within the year but I have not yet done so.

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    1. Welcome back!

      [Grinding Gear]

      Lest we forget, I actually ran Grinding Gear and discovered its flaws by brutal empiricism. But yeah, its goddamn night and day if I look at it with new eyes.

      [Tomb]

      I envy you. That sounds like great fun. I think its a testament to both Tomb’s design and your player’s ability that they were able to intuit the spirit of Tomb’s design and thus predict a lot of Tomb’s hazards without resorting to divination spells.

      [RPR]

      You may make up for this grievous injury to my delicate ego by preparing modest room in your rpg budget for my next attempt, which is to be kickstarted soon. Otherwise you are forgiven.

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  4. It is becoming onerous to type TLDR as a comment because the comments themselves are becoming ELTTLDR (Even Longer Than TLDR)

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    1. You are correct in pointing out that for this blog TLDR is obsolete. I would suggest you resort to the XML-derived {TLDR}{/TLDR} notation whilst I figure out a means to efficiently denote entire sets of posts and commentary as TLDR. I’m already standardizing my tags so those could be of use. In the meantime you could use the time saved to put up your blog again?

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    2. I am starting a blog with new material and no connection to the old identity because I will be gaming through zoom soon. I will let you know if I feel there is enough material worth looking at.

      You yourself have stepped up your game here and made a rare thing, a readable game blog. Leaving behind the repetitive vile weasels of ydis has been good for you. Do you touch-type? I have a theory that people who can touch type don’t take the time to edit their thoughts in the same way that slow typers are obliged to.

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      1. I am glad to hear it. I read what snippets of your blog I could unearth via the wayback machine and found your setting to be exceptionally well crafted, very unconventional and creative. I know you will never do so, but should you consider publishing, don’t hesitate to reach out.

        Thank you for your kind words re my blog. I am a touch-typer so make of that what you will. I liked YDIS because of the open format but have gradually come to accept that without a strong authorial voice such places tend to become breeding grounds for wretchedness. Even commenters with an ounce of wit are dragged under in a sea of offal and forced to participate in a loathsome jostiband of the damned.

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  5. ” clenching a fistful of polyhedrals until his hands bleed while Nine Inch Nails plays in the background ”

    Mark? Mark, is that you?

    On to the meat and potatoes. I concur with your premise that Tomb Of Horrors is for people who have reached a terminal state of Dungeons and Dragons and need shocking back into a world where everything’s new and habitual behaviours will get you done in. They are in the same mental category as those skulking crusties who scroll through torrents of nudity, hour after hour, all pornographies alike to them, until finally they cross the event horizon and realise that, for want of novelty and stimulation, they’ve been whacking off over a donkey in an Edwardian babby’s bonnet. The Tomb is a solution to a problem already alien to me and that’s probably why I never saw the appeal.

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  6. Excellent review. A much discussed module, I find it difficult to say anything new. For further discussions, I would recommend Dragonsfoot: not only is there a good review, there are threads every so often on “would this work to trap/destroy Acererak?”The Dungeon of Signs review is good, although the comments may be even more useful, apart from one fool who posted under Anonymous.
    Maybe one thing to say: this is a challenging module to referee. How much information do various divination spells give? Out of the box solutions need to be adjudicated.
    I did referee a group that made it to the final chamber, but they died fighting the skull. As many have commented, those who don’t regard the demi-lich itself as a trap, and try and best it rather than taking the money and run, have not learnt all the lessons.

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    1. It’s a good consideration, well worth pointing out. I suppose it would be in the spirit of the module to be relatively stringent but AD&D does a decent job of delineating the scope of various divination spells (I believe Contact Outer Plane limits it to a Yes, No, Maybe/N.A. which should serve well enough.

      I feel humbled among such experienced campaigners. Looks like there is room for achievement in the Actual Play categories.

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  7. I have run this 3 times over as many decades. The most recent was a 5e conversion I made and used level 10 pregen characters. Worked well so long as you keep all the “Save or Die” effects and don’t get rid of them as 5e is want to do. My PCs finished it BUT I was “generous” by letting them replace PCs that died. Since it was one off mini-campaign didn’t want people to drop out because a PC died.

    One of the characters died within the first 10 minutes – he stuck his head into the green devil mouth and was instantly lobotomised and effectively decapitated.

    The second memorable death I recall was the monk dying on the slide trap. Another PC was caught and sliding, the monk had excellent DEX saving throws and fast movement and ran down and saved the other PC. The bard offered to give him inspiration so he could get out, “Nah” he said “I have great agility, I’ll be fine we may need the inspiration for later”. Rolled a 1 and was instantly incinerated.

    Good times.

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  8. Have you read Gygax’s Necropolis (written c. 1987 as “generic” AD&D-compatible, published for the Dangerous Journeys game in 1992 and then adapted for d20 and re-published in 2002)? Its final section is basically an expanded remix of Tomb of Horrors with a specifically Egyptian flavor. I’m extremely biased because I played in it pre-publication with Gygax as the DM (at our local con in 1988, where he was the Guest of Honor) so I can’t even pretend to be objective about it, which is why I wonder how someone such as yourself who groks and appreciates the original views it.

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    1. I have not but I was planning on incorporating it into this little Tomb run I am doing. I would have included it for the potential of its introduction alone. An ousted Gary, chain-smoking in a dilapidated flat, meets up with a leaner, eviller Rob Kurtz for one final showdown. I can see it now! So I’d say stick around and you will be sure to see it come by, I don’t even give a fuck if I have to learn how to play Dangerous Journeys in order to review it.

      Fantastic first suggestion for a future review. And you will forgive me for admitting to no small amount of envy for playing at Gygax’s table. Welcome to Age of Dusk sir!

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  9. I’ve run Tomb of Horrors at least half a dozen times over the years, most recently over Easter in 2020 for my kids. They loved it, and still want to go back (with new characters, of course, since theirs all died).

    Your review is pretty good. I agree that a lot of the complaints of this adventure are overblown and that context is important…I think it would be difficult for individuals who came to the game post-1985 or so to really understand A) the premise of the game, or B) the inherent fun in a challenge of this nature. There’s nothing especially heroic about attempting to loot a dead (or undead) wizard’s tomb and D&D became all about being “heroic” in the post-DragonLance era…thus necessitating the need for some Acerack-Is-Going-To-Conquer-The-World-If-He-Isn’t-Stopped! plot garbage. When you think about it, tomb robbers probably DO deserve to meet horrifying ends…but part of the fun of the game (as originally written) was trying NOT to reap the fate you so richly deserved. Now we need evil cultists. In every adventure. To justify all the killing. (*barf*)

    One of the all time great modules. I’ve only ever seen two groups reach the end. And I’ve never had any party defeat Acerack. Ever. Love it.

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  10. Nice write up, your observations are spot on. Found your blog via a tip off from Monsters & Manuals and am slowly browsing through your old-school module reviews.

    Funny thing about Tomb of Horrors for me is that is was the very first module I ever bought, just getting into AD&D with my friends (I was 10 years old) sometime around 1978, so I guess the green cover had just come out. There wasn’t a lot to choose from in our local hobby shop that catered mostly to model-building—just S1 and maybe B2. At least that is how I remember it. The cool cover sold me and I took it home not really caring it was supposed to be for character levels 10-14 and our group had literally just started played the game. Naturally I loved it to pieces and it probably influenced my concept of what a “dungeon” is supposed to be like for the rest of my life. Not necessarily the lethality but more of a thing with ambience and intrigue.

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    1. Thanks. Noisms sent a lot of folks my way, that was kind of him.

      It’s interesting to hear a story about buying Tomb of Horrors and the takeaway is that it influenced your games for the better instead of turning you off of D&D forever, because you figured out what elements were likely to resonate with people. That’s good, I like that.

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  11. what dungeons have actually successfully replicated this style of dungeon since? Understood they are rare, but what kind of trap tomb puzzle dungeons make the cut or at least approximate it?

    I’m looking for some good examples for lower levels as I build my own

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    1. Mud Sorcerer’s Tomb in Dungeon #34 is pretty good. Also, its not flawless, and its a bit more balanced between combat and traps, but S6 Labyrinth of Madness also manages to pull it off. I think looking to early Dragon and Dungeon mag is a good place to start.

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    2. Possibly a repeat: comments may not have taken first time.

      You may find the “Pingback” links helpful. As you mentioned lower levels, possibles include: C1 The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan; Vault of the Warlord (No ArtPunk 1); The Grinding Gear. You might also like Prince’s Palace of Unquiet Repose, it has a similar vibe.

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